333# 记事二：
过了一会儿，我又从低地听到了我以前听到的感叹声：“哦，多么博学啊！哦，多么博学啊！”我环顾四周，看看谁在场，看哪，是天使在那里，他们来自就在那些大喊“哦，多么博学啊”的人正上方的天堂。我与他们谈论了这喊声，他们说：“这些博学的灵人就是那种只推理某种东西是否存在，很少思考它的确存在的学者。因此，他们就像吹来吹去的风，或空心树周围的树皮、没有杏仁的杏壳、没有果肉的果皮。他们的心智缺乏内在判断，只与身体感官紧密相连。因此，如果他们的感官无法辨别某种东西，做出决定，他们就无法得出结论。总之，他们是纯感官的，或说是感觉主义者，我们称他们为推理者或辩论者。他们被如此称呼，是因为他们永远不会对任何东西得出结论；无论听到什么，他们都会拿来争论它是否存在，并不断反驳。他们最喜欢攻击真理，通过把它们置于争论而将它们撕成碎片。这些人自以为他们比世界上的任何人都更博学。”
听到这些话，我请天使带我去见他们。他们就把我带到一个山洞，有一段台阶从那里通往低地。我们拾级而下，朝呼喊“哦，多么博学”的方向走去。我们看到几百人站在一个地方，在地上踏步。看到这一幕，我很惊讶，问他们为什么这样站在地上踏步；我补充说，他们很快就会在地上踏出一个洞来。天使们闻言笑着说：“他们看似站在一个地方，是因为他们对任何问题的思考从来都不是它存在，只是它是否存在，并为此争论不休。由于他们的思维从不超越这一步，所以他们看起来就像踩在一个点上，原地踏步。”天使们还说：“那些从自然界来到这个世界的人当听说他们在另一个世界时，会在许多地方聚集起来，形成群体。他们问天堂和地狱在哪里，神又在哪里。他们被告知后，就开始推理、论证并争论神是否存在。他们这样做，是因为当今自然界有大量唯物主义者，每当宗教的话题出现时，他们就开始互相争论，也与其他群体争论；对这个问题的讨论很少以肯定地相信神存在而告终。后来，这些人越来越多地与恶人联系在一起，这是因为若不从神那里，没有人能出于对良善的爱而行任何良善。”
然后，我被带到他们的集会上；在我看来，他们衣着得体，脸并不难看。天使们说：“他们在自己的光中看起来是这样；但如果天堂之光照在他们身上，他们的脸和衣服都会改变。”当天堂之光进来时，他们的脸变得昏暗，衣服像黑麻袋；但这光一退去，他们看起来就和以前一样。过了一会儿，我与这群人中的一些人交谈，说：“我听到你们周围的人群喊着说：‘哦，多么博学啊！’因此，我可以和你们谈谈最深奥的学问。”他们回答说：“随便你谈什么；我们都会给你一个满意的回答。”于是我问：“什么样的宗教是救赎人类所必需的？”对此，他们回答说：“我们要把这个问题分成几个问题；在我们对这些问题做出决定之前，我们无法给予回答。我们的调查将按以下顺序进行：
（1）宗教有什么意义？
（2）有没有救赎这回事？
（3）一种宗教会比另一种宗教更有效吗？
（4）有天堂和地狱吗？
（5）死后有永生吗？
除此之外还有其它问题。”然后，我问了第一个问题：宗教有什么意义？于是他们开始用一连串的论据讨论这个问题。我恳求他们把它提交给会众。他们照做了；普遍的回答是，这个问题需要大量调查，所以傍晚之前不可能完成。我问他们能否在一年内完成。其中一个人回答说，一百年也不可能完成。对此，我反驳道：“在此期间，你们没有宗教；由于救赎取决于宗教，所以你们对救赎没有任何概念，也没有对它的任何信仰，或没有任何实现救赎的希望。”这个人回答说：“难道不应该首先证明有没有宗教这回事，它是什么，它是不是真实的东西吗？如果有这回事，那它必为智者而存在；如果没有这回事，那它只为普通人而存在。众所周知，宗教被称为一种约束；但问题是，它是约束谁的？如果它只是给普通人的，那么它本身就什么都不是；但如果它也是给智者的，那么它就是有意义的。”
听到这话，我说：“你们什么都不懂，因为你们只能思考某种东西是否存在，把这个问题转到子问题上，或说把它从这一边转到那一边。除非一个人确切地知道某种东西，否则他怎么能学习呢？只有当某种东西被确立时，他才能继续前进，就像一个人一步一步走路一样；然后他才逐渐获得智慧。否则，你们甚至连指尖都碰不到真理，而是把它们移得越来越远，直到看不见。因此，只推理某种东西是否存在，就是在推理一顶从未戴过的帽子，或一双从未穿过的鞋子是否合适。由此可见，你们不知道任何东西是否存在，或它是否只存在于观念中，因而不知道是否有像救赎或死后的永生这样的事，一种宗教是否优于另一种宗教，以及是否有天堂和地狱。在这些问题上，只要你们在第一步停滞不前，在那里踩沙子，或原地踏步，而不是一步一步往前走，那么你们就根本不能思考，或形成任何概念。你们要当心，以免你们的心智站在判断的门外停滞不前，从内在变得僵硬，成为盐柱。”说完这些话，我就走了；他们愤怒地朝我扔石头。这时，在我看来，他们就像缺乏人类理性的雕像。我问天使们他们的命运；他们说，他们当中最糟糕的人被送往深处的一个沙漠里，被迫背负重担。在那里，他们因不能理性行事，或不能基于理性提供任何东西，所以就喋喋不休，胡说八道；从远处看，他们就像负重的驴子。”
333. 第二個經歷:
過了一陣子, 我又聽到下面傳來與之前相同的呼喊聲:"多有學問, 多有學問啊！"於是我四周觀看誰在那裡呼喊。讓我驚訝的是, 有天國的天人正好在那些叫嚷著"多有學問啊"之人的上方。
於是我與天人就這些情形交談起來。他們說:"這就是那類學者, 只會爭論某事物存在與否, 卻難得達成結論。因此, 他們就像吹來飄去的風, 或者像包裹著沒有樹心的樹皮, 又像內無果仁的杏仁殼, 像沒有果肉可包裹的果皮。因為他們的思想缺乏內在的判斷力, 僅僅與肉體的感官相連。因此, 倘若感官本身無法識別一些事情, 他們就無法得出結論。簡言之, 他們是感官的產物, 我們稱他們為'邏輯販子'。這樣稱呼他們, 在於他們從未達成任何結論, 只是撿起任何他們聽到的來討論並爭辯是否存在, 且習慣於持相反的立場。他們樂於攻擊真實存在的事情, 使它們成為辯論的主題並將其撕成碎片。這就是那些自認為比世上任何人都有學問之人。"
[2]聽到這些, 我向天人請求, 帶我下到這些人那裡看看。於是, 他們帶我下到一處窪地, 在那有臺階通向更低的地面。我走下去, 並順著"多有學問啊"的叫嚷聲而去。
在那裡, 我們遇到幾百號人站在一處,腳踩踏地面。我覺得奇怪, 問道:"他們為何站在一處腳踩地面？這樣下去, 會把地面踩成坑。"
天人笑了笑, 說:"他們看起來站在一處, 是因為他們從不認為任何事物存在, 只會去思考它們是否存在, 並為此爭論。因為他們的思想無法超越這個階段, 他們看起來只是原地踏步, 在地上一點磨來磨去, 毫不向前。"
天人繼續說:"那些人從物質界來到這個世界, 聽說來到另一個世界, 就在許多地方聚集成群。他們打聽天國與地獄在哪裡, 以及上帝在哪裡。不過, 當他們領受這方面的教導後, 依然開始去分析,辯論和鬥爭:上帝是否存在？他們這樣做, 是因為如今在物質界有大量的人們是自然崇拜者, 當出現宗教信仰的話題時, 自然崇拜者們就會就此與其他人爭辯。爭辯與討論的結果極少以信仰上帝存在為結局。自然崇拜者們後來與越來越多的惡人聯合, 因為除非源自上帝, 無人能發自善願而行出任何良善。"
[3]在這之後, 我被帶到他們之中。在我看來, 他們長得討人喜歡, 著裝講究。天人說:"他們看起來如此, 在於身處自己的光照下, 倘若天國之光射下, 他們的長相與著裝就會改變。"
接著就發生了, 他們的臉變得黝黑, 身上像是穿著黑色的粗布衣裳。不過, 當來自天國的光照關閉時, 他們又恢復先前的美態。
過了一會, 我與這人群中的幾位交談起來, 說:"我聽到你們當中有人叫喊'多有學問啊！'因此, 如果許可, 我盼望能參加你們關於至深奧學問的討論。"
他們回答道:"說出任何你想講的, 我們定會讓你滿意。"
於是我問:"要怎麼樣的信仰才會影響到人們的得救？"
他們說:"我們會將這個問題分成幾步來說, 除非解決這幾步, 我們無法給出答覆。這幾步的討論順序如下:(1)信仰是否如此重要？(2)拯救是否存在？(3)一個信仰是否就比另一個更有效？(4)天國與地獄是否存在？⑸死後是否有永恆的生命？還有一些類似的問題。"
於是, 我詢問第一個問題的答案:信仰是否如此重要？他們開始就這個問題展開大量的論證。我請求將此問題求助於會眾, 他們照此做了。得到一致的回復便是:這個論點需要大量的調研, 天黑前無法得出結論。
於是我問:"一年之內你們能得出結論嗎？"
其中一些人回答說, 一百年都無法結束。
我說:"在此同時, 你們沒有任何信仰, 又因為拯救取決於信仰, 你們沒有關於拯救的任何概念, 也不相信什麼拯救, 或者對此有任何希望。"
他們有人回答:"難道你不是像我們這樣, 先證明信仰是否存在, 何為信仰, 是否重要？倘若存在, 也當適用于智者; 如果不是, 那就只能適合於普通人。眾所周知, 宗教信仰被稱為一種約束, 但問題在於:'對誰的約束？'如果只是針對普通人, 就什麼也不是了; 若對智者也是約束, 就是那麼回事了。"
[4]聽完這些話, 我說:"你們根本不是有學問, 因為除了某事物是否存在,並為這個是與否不停爭論, 你們就沒有任何其它想法。若不知道某些事物為肯定, 並進而得出肯定的結論, 正如人一級一級上臺階, 逐步進入智慧之中, 若非如此, 怎麼稱得上有學問？要不然, 你們還未等你用指尖觸摸到真理, 就把真理從你們的視線驅離得遠遠的。因此, 只知道爭論事物是否存在, 就如同爭論一頂你們從未戴過的帽子, 或者一雙你從未穿過的鞋子。以下的爭辯, 帶來的結果, 除了無知, 還有什麼呢？例如, 某些事物是否存在？某事物是否只是個概念？拯救是否存在？或者是否有死後的永生？某信仰是否優於其它信仰？天國與地獄是否存在？只要你卡在第一步, 陷進沙子裡, 就無法抬起腳繼續前行, 也就無法得到關於這些物件的任何見解。"
說完這些, 我離開他們。他們被激怒了, 在身後向我扔石頭。那時, 對我來說, 他們看起來就像無人性的雕像。我向天人詢問他們最終的結局將會如何。天人回答說:"他們中間那些最底層之人會被投進深淵, 在那裡會找到一片沙漠地, 並被強迫去扛物。因為他們毫無理性, 只會喋喋不休地胡言亂語。從遠處看他們, 就是正搬運貨物的驢。"
333. The second memorable occurrence. After a time I heard again the voices from the lower earth that I had heard before: They are so learned! They are so learned!"
I looked around to see who was beside me, and to my surprise there were angels from the heaven that was directly above the people who were shouting, "They are so learned. "
I talked to the angels about the shouting. They said, "These are the type of scholars who argue only about whether something exists or not. They rarely think, it does exist. Therefore they are like the wind that blows and goes on by; they are like bark around a tree with nothing inside it; they are like almond shells without almonds; they are like skins empty of fruit. Their minds lack inner judgment and are connected only to their bodily senses. If their senses cannot discern something, they are unable to come to a conclusion about it. They are exclusively oriented to their senses. We call them debaters because they never come to a conclusion. Whatever they hear about, they take up for discussion and dispute whether it exists. They always take a contrary position. The thing they love the most is to attack things that are true and tear those things apart by making them the subject of debate. These are people who believe they are more learned than anyone else in the world. "
[2] Once I had heard that, I asked the angels to take me to them. The angels brought me to a little valley that had steps going down toward the lower earth. We went down the steps and followed the voices that were shouting, "They are so learned. "
We came upon several hundred people standing in one spot treading the ground. Amazed by this I asked, "Why are they standing and treading the ground with their feet like this?" I added, "If they keep it up they could dig a hole in the ground with their feet. "
The angels smiled at this and said, "They seem to be standing in one place like this, because they never think that anything exists; they think only about whether it exists, and argue over it. Since their thinking never advances beyond this stage, they look as if they are treading and wearing down one patch of ground without moving forward. "
The angels also said, "When people arrive in this world from the physical one and hear that they are in another world, they gather together in many places to form groups. They ask where heaven and hell are, and also where God is. After they have been taught, they start arguing, disputing, and fighting about whether God exists. This is a result of the great number of materialists in the physical world today. When the topic of religion comes up, materialists start to debate about it with one another and with other groups. The ensuing proposition and debate rarely results in an affirmation of the faith that God exists. Materialists associate more and more with the evil, because only from God can one do something good with a love for what is good. "
[3] Then I was taken down into their gathering. To my surprise they looked to me like people with pleasant faces and good-looking clothes. "They look this way in their own light," the angels said, "but if light from heaven flows in, their faces and clothes change. "
Then that happened. They looked as if they had dark faces and clothes made out of black sacks. Then the light from heaven was taken away and they looked the way they had before.
Soon I started speaking with some people from the group. I said, "I heard shouting from the crowd around you - 'They are so learned!' Might I be allowed, therefore, to enter a discussion with you on points that are of the utmost scholarly importance?"
"Say whatever you wish," they replied, "and we will give it adequate attention. "
I asked, "What does a religion need to be like in order to save people?"
They said, "We are going to divide this question into a number of subquestions. Before we have come to conclusions on these we will not be able to give a reply to your question. The points for discussion will be the following. (1) Is religion anything? (2) Does salvation exist or not? (3) Is one religion more effective than another? (4) Do heaven and hell exist? (5) Does everlasting life after death exist? And more as well. "
I asked for the first question: "Is religion anything?" They began discussing this with a host of arguments. I asked them to refer the question to the audience. They did so. The general response was that this question needed so much investigation that there was no way it could be finished by the end of the evening.
"Could you finish within a year?" I asked.
Someone answered that it could not be finished within a hundred years.
I said, "Meanwhile you have no religion; and because salvation depends on religion, you have no concept of, faith in, or hope of salvation. "
The person replied, "Won't someone have to show first whether religion exists, then what it is, and if it is anything? If it is something, it must exist for the wise; if it is not, then it exists only for the general public. As we know, religion is called a restraint, but there is the question of whom it restrains. If it is only a restraint for the general public, then it is not really anything. But if it is also a restraint for the wise, then it is something.
[4] On hearing that I said, "You are all anything but learned, because you are incapable of any other thought except whether something exists, and you deflect this question into subquestions. Can anyone be learned without knowing something for certain? Only when something is established can we move forward with it, just as people walk, putting one foot in front of the other; then we advance gradually into wisdom. Otherwise, rather than touching truths with even the tip of your finger, you move them farther and farther out of sight. Reasoning solely about whether something exists is reasoning about a hat that you never put on, or about a shoe that you never wear. What comes of it except not knowing whether anything exists or is anything other than an idea? What comes of it but not knowing whether salvation exists, or whether there is eternal life after death, or whether one religion is better than another, or whether there is a heaven or a hell? You are incapable of having any thought on these issues as long as you are stuck on the first step, treading the sand there, rather than lifting one foot after another and moving forward. While your minds are standing out in the open like this away from the shelter of a decision, watch out that your minds don't harden inside and become statues of salt. "
After I said this I left. They were considerably irritated and threw stones at me. At that point they looked to me like statues that had no human reason inside. I asked the angels about the final outcome of their lives. The angels said, "The lowest of them are sent down deep to a desert and are forced to carry loads. Because they cannot offer anything on the basis of reason, they blather and speak nonsense. From far away they look like donkeys carrying burdens. "
333. The second experience.
Some time later I heard again from the lower earth the same cries as before 'How learned, how learned!' On looking around to see who was there, I found myself in the presence of angels from the heaven exactly above the people who were shouting 'How learned!'
When I talked to them about the shouting, they said that these were learned people who only argue whether a thing exists or not, and rarely reach the thought that it is so. 'They are therefore like winds which blow and pass on, or like bark around trees that have no heartwood, or like almond shells with no kernel, or like the peel around fruits with no flesh inside. For their minds are devoid of interior judgment, and merely coupled to the bodily senses. So if the senses themselves are unable to judge, they can reach no conclusions. In short, they are creatures of their senses, and we call them logicmongers. We call them this because they never reach any conclusions, but they pick up anything they hear and argue whether it exists, continually speaking for and against. Nothing gives them more pleasure than attacking truths and by subjecting them to argument tearing them in pieces. These are the people who consider themselves learned beyond anyone in the world.'
[2] On hearing this I begged the angels to take me down to visit them. So they took me down to a hollow, from which steps led down to the lower earth. We went down and followed the sound of shouting 'How learned!' There we found some hundreds of people standing in one place stamping on the ground. I was surprised at this and asked: 'Why are they standing like that stamping on the ground? They might,' I added, 'make a hole in the ground like that.'
The angels smiled at this and said: 'They seem to stand in one place because they never think about anything being so, but only whether it exists, and this they argue about. When thought makes no further progress, they seem merely to trample and wear out one clod of earth without advancing.'
The angels went on: 'Those who arrive in this world from the natural one, and are told that they are in a different world, form groups in many places, and try to find out where heaven and hell are, and likewise where God is. But even after being taught this, they still begin reasoning, debating and arguing whether God exists. They do so because at the present time so many people in the natural world are nature-worshippers, and when the talk turns to religion this is the subject they discuss among themselves and with others. This proposition and discussion rarely ends in an affirmation of faith in the existence of God. Afterwards these people associate more and more with the wicked; this happens because no one can do any good from the love of good, except by God's help.'
[3] After this I was taken to a meeting, and there I saw people with not unpleasing faces and well dressed. 'They look like this,' said the angels, 'in their own light, but if light is shed from heaven, there is a change in their faces, and in their clothes.' This happened, and their faces turned swarthy and they seemed to be wearing black sackcloth. But when this light was shut off, they returned to their previous appearance.
A little later I spoke with some of the people in the meeting and said: 'I have heard the crowd around you crying out "How learned!" So I should like, if I may, to enter into conversation with you about matters of the most profound learning.' 'Say anything you like,' they replied, 'and we will satisfy you.'
'What sort of religion,' I asked, 'will effect people's salvation?'
'We shall split up this question,' they said, 'into several, and we cannot give a reply until we have settled these. The order of discussion will be: (1) whether religion is of any importance; (2) whether or not there is such a thing as salvation; (3) whether one religion is more efficacious than another; (4) whether heaven and hell exist; (5) whether there is everlasting life after death; and many more questions.'
So I asked about the first question, whether religion is of any importance; and they started discussing it with many arguments. So I asked them to refer it to the meeting, which they did. The agreed reply was that this proposition requires so much investigation that it would not be finished before evening. 'Could you,' I asked, 'finish it within a year?' One of them said it could not be finished in a hundred years. 'So,' I said, 'in the meantime you have no religion, and since salvation depends upon it, you have no idea of salvation, no belief in it or hope for it.'
'Wouldn't you like us,' he replied, 'to prove first whether religion exists, what it is, and whether it is of any importance? If it exists, it will be for the wise too; if it does not, it will be only for the common people. It is well known that religion is called a bond; but the question may be asked, "For whom?" If it is only for the common people, it is not really of any importance; but if it is for the wise, then it is.'
[4] On hearing this I said: 'You are anything but learned, since you can think of nothing but whether it exists, and argue this in either direction. Can anyone be learned, unless he knows something for certain, and advances to that conclusion, just as a person advances step by step, and in due course achieves wisdom? Otherwise you do not so much as touch truths with your finger-tips, but drive them further and further from your sight. Therefore reasoning only whether it exists is like arguing about a hat without wearing it, or about a shoe without putting it on. What can come of this, except ignorance whether anything exists, whether anything is more than an idea, and so whether salvation exists, or everlasting life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether heaven and hell exist? You cannot have any thoughts on these subjects, so long as you are bogged down at the first step and pound the sand there, unable to put one foot in front of the other and make progress. Take care that, while your minds stand in the open outside the court, they do not inwardly grow ossified and turn into pillars of Salt.'
With these words I left them, and they were so incensed they threw stones after me. Then they looked to me like carvings, totally devoid of human reason. I asked the angels what was their fate. They said that the worst of them are plunged into the depths, and there they find a desert, where they are forced to carry loads. Since they can then make no reasonable utterance, they chatter and make idle remarks, Seen from a distance there they look like donkeys carrying loads.
333. Second Memorable Relation:
After a while I heard again from the lower earth the exclamations I had heard before, "O how learned! O how learned!" And I looked about to see who were present, and behold the angels were there who occupied the heaven directly above those who cried, "O how learned!"
To these I spoke about the shouting, and they said, "Those learned spirits are such as merely reason whether a thing is so or is not, and who rarely think that it is so. Therefore they are like winds that come and go, like bark around hollow trees, and like nutshells without a kernel; or like a rind about fruit without pulp; for their minds are devoid of interior judgment, and are merely united with the bodily senses; unless therefore the senses themselves decide, they are able to form no conclusions. In a word, they are merely sensual, and we call them Reasoners. They are so called because they never come to a conclusion about anything, but take up whatever they hear and dispute as to whether it is so or not, with unceasing contention. They love nothing better than to attack truths, and tear them to pieces by bringing them into disputation. These believe themselves to be more learned than all others in the world."
[2] Having heard this, I asked the angels to conduct me to them; and they led me to a cave, from which steps descended to the lower earth. We went down, following the cry, "O how learned!" And behold, several hundred spirits stood in one place, stamping upon the ground. Wondering at this, I asked why they thus stood and stamped the ground with their feet, adding, that they might make a hole in it with their feet.
At this the angels smiled and said, "They appear so to stand still, because their thought on any subject is never that it is so, but only whether it is so or not, and thus it is a matter of dispute; and as they never get beyond this in their thought, they appear as never advancing, but only as treading and wearing on one spot."
The angels also said, "Those who come from the natural world into this and hear that they are in another world form themselves into companies in many places and ask where heaven is, where hell is, and where God is. And when they have been told they begin to reason, dispute, and contend about whether there is a God. This they do, because in the natural world at the present day, there are so many naturalists, who, whenever religion is talked about, bring the subject into dispute, both among themselves and with others; and the discussion of this question rarely terminates in an affirmation of belief that there is a God. Afterwards these persons associate themselves more and more with the wicked, which is done because no one can do any good from the love of good, except from God."
[3] After this I was conducted to that assembly, and behold, there appeared to me men handsomely clothed and with faces not unbecoming; and the angels said, "These so appear in their own light; but if the light of heaven flows in, both their faces and their garments are changed." And when the light of heaven was admitted, they appeared with dusky faces and clothed in coarse black garments; but this light being withdrawn, they appeared as before.
Presently I talked with some of the assembly, and said, "I heard from the throng about you the shout, 'O how learned!' It may therefore be permissible to have a conversation with you on matters of the most learned nature."
They replied, "Say what you please; we will give you a satisfactory answer."
And I asked, "What kind of religion is necessary for the salvation of man?"
They answered, "We will divide this question into several; and until these are decided we can give no reply. The investigation will proceed as follows: (1) Is religion anything? (2) Is there such a thing as salvation or not? (3) Is one religion more efficacious than another? (4) Is there a heaven and a hell? (5) Is there is an eternal life after death? besides other questions."
I asked about the first question, Is religion anything? and they began to discuss it with a host of arguments. I begged of them to refer it to the assembly. They did; and the general response was, that this proposition required so much investigation that it could not be finished before evening.
I asked them whether they could finish it within a year.
One of them replied, that it could not be finished in a hundred years.
I answered, "Meanwhile you are without religion; and as salvation depends on this, you are without any idea of salvation or any belief in it or hope of it."
He replied, "Must it not first be shown whether there is such a thing as religion, and what it is, and whether it is anything? If it is, it must be also for the wise; if not, it must be for the vulgar only. It is known that religion is called a bond; but for whom is it a bond? If for the vulgar only in reality it is not anything; but if for the wise also, then it is something."
[4] Hearing this, I said, "You are anything but learned, because you are able to think only whether a thing is so or not, and bandy it from one side to the other. How can a man be learned unless he knows something for a certainty and advances in the knowledge of it as a man walks, step by step, thus gradually attaining to wisdom? Otherwise you do not even touch truths with the tip of your finger, but you remove them further and further out of sight. Therefore to reason merely as to whether a thing is so or not, is to reason about the fit of a cap or shoe without ever trying it on. What then comes of this but that you do not know whether anything is a reality, or is only an idea, thus whether there is such a thing as salvation, or eternal life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether there is a heaven and a hell? On these subjects you cannot think at all so long as you stick at the first step, and tread the ground there, instead of bringing forward one foot after the other, and going on. Have a care for your selves lest your minds, while standing thus outside the door of judgment, grow hard within and become like pillars of salt."
So saying I withdrew, while they from indignation threw stones after me. They then appeared to me like graven images in which there is nothing of human reason.
I asked the angels of the lot of such; and they said that the lowest of them were sent down into the deep, into a desert there, and are compelled to carry packs; and then, as they are unable to evolve anything from reason, they gabble and talk nonsense, and at a distance they appear like asses carrying burdens.
333. The second experience. Some time later, I again heard from the lower earth voices calling out as before, "Oh, how learned! Oh, how learned!" On looking round to see who my companions were, I saw some angels belonging to the heaven immediately above those who were calling out. I spoke to them about this exclamation, and they said that the learned were those who only reason as to whether a thing is, or is not, and seldom base their consideration on the ground that a thing is. They are, therefore, like the winds which blow and pass away, and like bark around trees without pith. They are also like shells of almonds without any kernel, or like the rind of fruit without the pulp. For their minds are devoid of interior judgment, and are connected only with the bodily senses; so that if the senses make no decision, they can form no conclusion; in short, they are mere sensualists. We call them reasoners, because they never come to any conclusion, but make whatever they hear a matter of argument, questioning its existence, and contradicting without end. They love nothing better than to attack truths, and pull them to pieces in discussion; yet these believe they are learned above all men in the world."
[2] Having heard this, I requested the angels to conduct me to them; and they brought me to a cave from which a flight of steps led down to the lower earth. We descended, and proceeding in the direction of the cry, "Oh, how learned!" we saw several hundred persons standing in one place, and stamping on the ground. Surprised at this sight, I enquired why there were so standing and beating the ground with their feet; and I added that they should soon stamp a hollow in the ground. At this the angels smiled and said, "They appear to stand in the one place, because they have no thoughts about anything on the ground that it exists, but only as to whether it does exist, always arguing; and as long as their thought makes no progress, they seem to tread and trample upon one spot, without advancing one step forward." The angels continued: "Such persons who come from the natural world into this, and hear that they are in another world, form themselves into companies in many places, and ask where heaven is, and where hell is, and also where God is. Moreover, even after being instructed they still begin to reason, to argue, and to dispute about whether there is a God. This happens because in the natural world to-day there are so many materialists who, in their own company and in the company of others, when the discourse turns upon religion, make the existence of God a matter of debate; and the discussion on this subject seldom terminates in the belief that there is a God. Later, these persons associate more and more with the wicked; for no one can do anything that is good from the love of good, except from God."
[3] I was then conducted to their assembly, and to me they seemed good looking and handsomely dressed. The angels said, "This is their appearance in their own light; but if light from heaven flows down upon them, both their faces and their clothing undergo a change." The light of heaven was admitted, and then their faces took on a dusky hue, and they seemed to be clothed in black sack-cloth; but on the removal of this light, they appeared as before. After a short time I spoke to several of the company, and said, I heard from the crowd around you the cry, 'Oh, how learned!' May I be permitted then to converse with you on matters of the deepest learning?" They replied: "Mention any subject you please, and we will endeavor to give you a satisfactory answer." So I asked, "What kind of religion is necessary for the salvation of man?" To this they replied "We will divide this question into several parts; and we cannot answer until we have come to a decision upon these. Our inquiry, then, will proceed under the following heads: 1. Is religion anything? 2. Is there such a thing as salvation, or not? 3. Is there any one religion more efficacious than another? 4. Is there a heaven and a hell? 5. Is there eternal life after death? with many other points in addition." I then raised the first question: Is religion anything? Thereupon they began to discuss this with a wealth of argument; and I begged them to refer it to the assembly. They did so, and the general answer was, that it was a matter requiring so much investigation that it could not be finished in an evening. Then I asked whether they could complete it in a year; and one of them replied that it could not be done in a hundred years. To this I rejoined: "In the meantime you are without religion; and because salvation depends upon it, you are without any conception of what salvation is, without any faith in it, or any hope of attaining it." The same one answered, "Ought it not first to be proved whether there is such a thing as religion, what it is, and whether it is anything real? If there is such a thing, it must be for the wise; if not, but only a fiction, it must be for the common people. It is well known that religion means a bond; but the question arises, for whom? If it is only for the common people, it is nothing in itself; but if it is also for the wise, then it is something."
[4] Thereupon I said: "You are anything but learned, because you can entertain only one subject of thought, namely, whether a thing is; and your discussion is limited to, whether a thing is, or is not. No one can be learned unless he knows something for certain, and makes progress in it, as a man makes progress in walking step by step, till he gradually attains to wisdom. Otherwise you do not touch truths even with your finger nail, but you remove them more and more out of sight. Thus, to reason only as to whether a thing is, is like reasoning as to whether a hat and a shoe will fit, without ever putting them on. It follows then that you do not know whether anything is, or whether it exists only in idea; thus whether there is such a thing as salvation, or eternal life after death, whether one religion is better than another, and whether there is a heaven and a hell. On these subjects you cannot form any conception as long as you halt at the first step, and stand there beating the sand, instead of setting one foot before the other in order to make progress. Take heed lest your minds, halting thus outside the door of decision, should interiorly harden, and become statues of salt."
With these words I departed, and they in their indignation threw stones after me. Then they appeared to me like graven images, devoid of human reason. I asked the angels concerning their lot; and they told me that the lowest of them are sent down to a desert place, and compelled to carry burdens. There, as they are incapable of acting rationally, they babble nonsense, and at a distance appear like asses bearing burdens.
333. SECUNDUM MEMORABILE.
Post aliquod tempus audivi iterum ex infera Terra, voces quas prius, O QUAM ERUDITI, O QUAM ERUDITI, et circumspexi quinam adessent, et ecce erant Angeli, qui in Coelo immediate supra illos, qui clamabant, 1 O QUAM ERUDITI, erant; et loquutus cum illis de clamore, et dixerunt, quod Eruditi illi essent, qui solum ratiocinantur, NUM SIT, VEL NON SIT, et raro cogitant QUOD ITA SIT, quare sunt sicut Venti qui flant et transeunt; ac sicut cortices circum arbores quae absque medulla sunt, et sicut crustae circum amygdala absque nucleo; aut sicut superficies circum fructus absque carne; nam Mentes illorum sunt absque interiori judicio, et modo unitae cum Sensibus corporis, quare si non ipsi Sensus judicant, nihil possunt concludere; verbo sunt mere Sensuales, et a nobis vocantur RATIOCINATORES; vocantur Ratiocinatores, quia nusquam concludunt aliquid, sed assumunt quicquid audiunt, et disputant, num sit, jugiter contradicendo; nihil plus amant, quam aggredi veritates, et sic illas discerpere mittendo in lites; hi sunt qui credunt se prae omnibus in Mundo Eruditos.
[2] His auditis, rogavi Angelos, ut deducerent me ad illos, et deduxerunt [me] 2 ad Cavum, a quo gradus ad inferiorem terram tendebant, et descendimus, et sequuti sumus Clamorem, O quam Eruditi, et ecce erant aliquot centeni stantes in uno loco pulsantes humum [pedibus]; 3 hoc miratus quaesivi, cur stant ita et plantis pulsant humum, et addidi, sic possunt pedibus excavare solum; ad hoc subriserunt Angeli, et dixerunt, apparet quod ita stent, quia nihil cogitant de aliqua re quod ita sit, sed solum Numeri ita sit, ac litigant, et cum cogitatio non ultra progreditur, apparent modo calcare et terere unam glebam, et non progredi: et dixerunt Angeli, illi qui e Mundo Naturali in Hunc alluunt, et audiunt, quod in alio Mundo sint, colligunt se multis in locis in Caetus, et quaerunt ubi Coelum et ubi Infernum, ut et ubi Deus; at postquam instructi sunt, usque incipiunt ratiocinari, disputare et altercari, Numeri DEUS SIT, hoc faciunt, quia hodie in Mundo naturali tam multi Naturalistae sunt, et hi inter se et cum aliis, quando loquela est de Religione, hoc in ventilationem mittunt, et haec propositio et ventilatio raro terminatur in affirmativo fidei, quod Deus sit; et hi postea plus et plus consociant se cum malis, et hoc fit, quia nemo potest aliquod bonum ex amore boni facere nisi a Deo.
[3] Postea deductus sum ad congregationem, et ecce apparebant mihi homines facie non indecora, et in vestibus ornatus; et dixerunt Angeli, apparent tales in propria luce, at si lux e Coelo influit, mutantur facies, et quoque vestes; et factum est ita, et tunc apparebant faciebus furvis, induti saccis nigris; sed luce hac subtracta, visi sunt ut prius. Mox loquutus sum cum aliquibus ex congregatione, et dixi, audivi Clamorem turbae circum vos, O quam Eruditi, quare liceat de rebus, quae summae Eruditionis sunt, vobiscum sociare sermonem, et responderunt, dic quicquid lubet, et satisfaciemus; et quaesivi, qualis erit Religio, per quam salvatur homo; et dixerunt, dispescemus hanc interrogationem in plures, et antequam has conclusimus, non possumus responsum dare; ac ventilatio erit, 1. Num Religio sit aliquid. 2. Num salvatio sit vel non. 3. Num una Religio plus efficiat quam altera. 4. Numeri Coelum et Infernum sit. 5. Numeri vita aeterna post mortem sit; praeter plura: et quaesivi de Primo, Num religio sit aliquid, et coeperunt ventilare hoc copia argumentorum; et petivi ut referrent hoc ad Congregationem, ac retulerunt; et commune responsum fuit, quod Propositio illa egeat tam multa inquisitione, ut non possit finiri intra vesperam; at quaesivi, num a vobis possit finiri intra annum, et unus dixit, quod non possit intra centum annos; et dixi, interea estis absque Religione, et quia salvatio inde pendet, estis absque idea, fide, et spe salvationis; et respondit, annon demonstrabitur primum, num Religio sit, et quid illa, et num sit aliquid; si est, erit etiam pro sapientibus, si non est, erit solum pro vulgo; notum est, quod Religio dicatur Vinculum, sed quaeritur pro quibus; si modo pro vulgo, in se non est aliquid, si etiam pro sapientibus, est.
[4] His auditis dixi, nihil minus quam Eruditi estis, quia non potestis aliud cogitare, quam num sit, et hoc versare in utramque partem; quis potest Eruditus esse, nisi aliquid 4 pro certo sciat, et progrediatur in illud, sicut homo progreditur e vestigio in vestigium, et successive in sapientiam; alioquin Veritates ne quidem tangitis ungue, sed plus et plus e conspectu removetis illas; quare ratiocinari solum num sit, est ratiocinari ex pileo, qui nunquam imponitur, aut ex calceo qui non induitur; quid inde profluit, nisi quod non sciatis, Numeri detur aliquid, et num sit quicquam nisi idea, ita Numeri detur salvatio, Numeri vita aeterna post mortem, num una Religio praestet alteri, Numeri Coelum et Infernum sint; de his non cogitare aliquid potestis, quamdiu haeretis in primo passu, et pulsatis arenam ibi, et non ferendo fertis pedem ultra pedem, et progredimini. Cavete vobis, ne Mentes vestrae, dum ita foris extra judicium stant, intus indurescant et fiant statuae salis. His dictis abivi, et illi ex indignatione conjecerunt lapides post me, et tunc mihi visi sunt sicut sculptilia, quibus nihil rationis humanae inest. Et quaesivi Angelos de sorte illorum, et dixerunt, quod infimi illorum demittantur in profundum, et ibi in desertum, et adigantur ad portandum sarcinas, et tunc quia non possunt aliquid proferre ex ratione, garriunt et loquuntur vana, et ibi e longinquo apparent sicut asini portantes onera.
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