77# 记事二：
一天早晨，当我从睡梦中醒来，在完全清醒之前，在宁静的晨光中沉思时，我透过窗户看到像一道闪电一样的东西，不久又听到像一声雷鸣一样的声音。当我想知道这是从哪里来的时，就从天上听说，我附近有一些灵人在激烈争论神和自然；那闪电般的闪光和雷鸣般的撞击声是支持神的那一方和支持自然的那一方的论据的冲突和碰撞的对应和随之的显现。这种属灵争竞的根源是：在地狱里，有一些撒但彼此说：“但愿我们被允许与天堂天使交谈！因为我们会非常清楚且充分证明，他们所说的神，即万物的起源，就是自然；因此，除非是指自然，否则‘神’只是一个没有意义的词而已。”由于这些撒但全心全灵魂地相信这一点，并渴望与天堂天使交谈，所以他们被允许从地狱的泥潭和黑暗中升上来，与当时从天而降的两位天使交谈。
这些撒但在灵人界，灵人界在天堂与地狱的中间。一看到天使，撒但就急忙跑到他们面前，用充满愤怒的声音减道：“你们就是我们被允许见面讨论神和自然的天堂天使吗？就因为你们承认神，所以你们被称为智慧；但是，哦，你们是多么简单啊！谁见过神？谁知道神是什么？谁能想象神掌权作王，能掌管宇宙及其中的一切？除了普罗大众或最底层的普通人外，谁会承认他们既看不见也不理解的东西？还有什么比自然是全部中的全部更明显的呢？除了自然外，谁曾用眼睛看到，用耳朵听到，用鼻子闻到，用舌头尝到，用手和身体触摸并感受到任何东西？我们的身体感官不就是真实东西的见证者吗？凭它们的证据，谁不能发誓说，事实就是如此？我们的身体赖以生存的呼吸不就见证了这一点吗？我们呼吸的，不是大自然吗？我们的头脑和你们的头脑不都在自然界吗？若不是来自大自然，进入头脑思维的流注是从哪里来的呢？若移除大自然，你们还能思想什么呢？”他们用这种口气还说了更多的话。
当天使们听到这些话时，他们回答说：“你们这样说，是因为你们是纯感官的。所有在地狱里的人都将他们的思维观念沉浸于身体感官，不能把他们的心智提升到感官之上。因此，我们原谅你们。邪恶的生活和随之对虚假的信仰已经关闭了你们心智的内层，以至于对你们来说，提升到感官事物之上是不可能的，除非你们处于远离生活的邪恶和信仰的虚假的状态。因为当一个撒但听到真理时，他也能理解，和一位天使一样；但他不会保留下来，因为邪恶会抹杀真理，引入虚假。不过，我们发觉你们现在处于远离邪恶的状态，因此能理解我们所说的真理。因此，请注意我们即将要说的话。”他们接着说：“你们曾生活在自然界，并死在那里，现在是在灵界。在此之前，你们知道死后的生活吗？难道你们以前没有否认它，从而把自己等同于野兽吗？在此之前，你们知道天堂和地狱，或这个世界的光吗？或你们知道你们不再在自然的领域之内，而是在它之上吗？因为这个世界及其一切都是属灵的；属灵事物远远高于属世事物，以至于就连你们过去所在的自然界最小的事物都不能流入这个世界。但你们相信自然是神或女神，所以也相信这个世界的光和热就是自然界的光和热；然而，事实根本不是这样，因为在这里，属世之光就是黑暗，属世之热就是寒冷。你们了解这个世界的太阳吗？我们的光和热就是从这太阳发出的。你们知道这个太阳只是纯粹的爱，而自然界的太阳只是纯粹的火吗？自然界从纯粹是火的自然界的太阳中存在和持续存在；而生命本身，即与智慧结合的爱，从纯粹是爱的天堂太阳中存在和持续存在；因此，你们视为神或女神的自然显然是死的，或说绝对是死的。
“在适当的护送下，你们可以和我们一起升入天堂；同样，在适当的护送下，我们也可以和你们一起下入地狱。在天堂，你们会看到宏伟壮丽的事物；而在地狱，你们会看到卑鄙肮脏的东西。造成这种区别的原因是，所有在天堂里的人都敬拜神，而所有在地狱里的人都敬拜自然；众天堂里的宏伟壮丽的事物是对良善和真理的爱之情感的对应；而众地狱里的卑鄙肮脏的东西是对邪恶和虚假的爱之情感的对应。现在，请根据所有这些考虑来判断一下，是神还是自然是全部中的全部。”对此，撒但回答说：“在我们目前所处的状态下，我们可以从刚才所听到的得出结论，有一位神；但当邪恶的快乐充满我们的心智时，我们只看到自然。”
我看到了那两个天使和撒但，并听见他们所说的话，因为他们就站在离我不远的地方；看哪！在他们周围，我看到了许多在自然界以学问而闻名的人。我惊讶地发现，这些学者有时站在天使附近，有时站在撒但附近，站在谁的附近，就支持谁；我被告知，他们位置的变化就是他们心智状态上的变化，有时支持这一方，有时支持那一方，因为他们在信仰上就像变化之神威耳廷努斯；天使们继续说：“我们会告诉你一个秘密：我们曾俯视地上那些以学问而闻名的人，发现一千人中有六百人支持自然，其余的人支持神。此外，那些支持神的人不是出于对这个问题的任何理解来支持的，只是因为他们听说，自然来自神，并经常这么说；出于记忆和回忆，而不是同时出于思考和理解力而经常谈论一件事，就会产生这种信仰。”
之后，撒但得到了护送，在两位天使的陪伴下升入天堂；他们看到了宏伟壮丽的事物。当他们在那里被天堂之光光照时，他们承认有一位神，自然被创造是为了服从来自神的生命；自然本身是无生命的，因而凭自身什么都做不了，而是被生命驱动或作用。看见并感知到这一切后，他们就下去了；随着他们下降，邪恶的爱又回来了，并关闭了他们在上面的理解力，打开了他们在下面的理解力。然后，在它上面可以说出现了一种阴影，闪烁着地狱之火。他们的脚一碰到地面，这地面就在他们下面裂开了，他们又沉到自己人那里。
77. 第二個經歷:
一天清晨睡醒, 在還未完全清醒之前, 我在這清朗的黎明裡沉思。窗外仿佛一道閃電掠過, 很快聽到打雷般的聲響。我正想弄清楚發生什麼事, 從天上得知有人在附近正激烈進行關於上帝和自然的爭論。像閃電的光和像雷聲般的隆隆聲是對應於爭論的衝突與碰撞。其中一方支援上帝, 另一方支援自然。
這次屬靈的爭戰事出有因, 在地獄的一些撒旦彼此說:"如果允許我們與天國的天人對話, 我會向他們完全並徹底地證明, 他們所說的萬物起源的上帝, 其實就是自然。上帝只不過是自然的表達方式而已。"
因為這幫撒旦如此深刻並全心相信, 並且渴求與天國的天人對話, 於是他們被允許爬出地獄的污穢與黑暗, 與從天國而來的天人們對話。他們在天國與地獄之間的靈界會面。
[2]撒旦一看到天人就湧向他們, 並高聲怒道:"你們就是從天國派下來與我們辯論上帝與自然的那些天人？因為你們承認上帝就自認為有智慧？哦, 你們簡直太天真了！誰曾見過上帝？誰能明白上帝是什麼？誰能認知上帝治理並掌控宇宙及其中萬物的法則？除了那些低等的愚民, 誰還會這樣去承認他們看不見和不明白的？還有什麼比自然是萬有中的萬有更顯而易見的呢？除了自然, 眼睛所看到的還有什麼呢？耳所聽到的不只是自然嗎？鼻子所聞的, 除了自然,還有別的嗎？舌頭所嘗的,手與身體所觸的, 除了自然,還有別的嗎？這些身體的感官不是真實的見證嗎？憑這些證據, 任何人可以證實如此。讓我們身體存活的呼吸不也是證據嗎？除了自然, 誰讓我們呼吸？你我的頭不都在自然之中嗎？除了從自然, 進入我們頭腦的思想還能從哪裡來呢？離開自然, 你根本無法思考。"類似的話還講了一大堆。
[3]聽完這些, 天人回答:"你們這樣講, 是因為你們只是相信你們的感覺。所有在地獄之中的靈都將其思想陷在身體的感覺之中, 他們無法將思想提升那這個層面以上。因此, 我們能諒解你們。邪惡的生活與偽謬的信仰完全關閉了你們思想的內在領域, 以致於不可能將思想上升到肉體感官之上, 除非你們進入到遠離邪惡生活與偽謬信仰的狀態。撒旦聽到真理後也能像天人那樣明白真理, 但是他不能保持, 因為邪惡會抹掉真理,引進偽謬來替代。我們觀察到你們現在就處在那樣的狀態, 能聽懂我們現在告訴你們的真理, 所以請仔細聽我們接下來所說的。
"你們曾生活在物質世界, 你們死在那裡, 如今你們在心靈世界。在死之前, 你們知道任何關於死後生活的事情嗎？在這之前, 你們否認有死後的生活, 將你們自身與動物同列。在死之前, 你們知道關於天國和地獄, 知道心靈世界的光與熱等等嗎？你們難道意識不到你們已不再處於自然之中, 而是超越自然領域之上嗎？因為這個世界是屬靈的, 其中萬物也是。屬靈之物如此超越自然之物, 以至你們之前生活過的物質世界不能對心靈世界產生任何影響。
"但是, 因為你們相信自然就是神明或有神性, 還相信這個世界的光熱同物質世界的光熱相同。實際上沒有一丁點相同, 因為物質之光在這裡是黑暗的, 物質之熱在這裡是寒冷的。
"你們知道我們光與熱的來源, 也就是心靈世界的太陽的任何事情嗎？這個太陽是完全的仁愛, 而物質世界的太陽是完全的火, 你知道嗎？你們認識到物質世界完全是火的太陽是自然的源頭, 並維持物質的延續。你們能認識到天國中完全是仁愛的這個太陽是生命的源頭, 並維持生命的延續嗎？自然, 你們奉為神明或賦予神性的自然, 其實是死的。
[4]"如果你們能得到保護, 可以跟隨我們上到天國。如果我們得到保護, 我們可以隨你們下到地獄。在天國, 你們會看到壯麗輝煌的景象, 而在地獄, 我們只會看到醜陋骯髒的景象。兩者不同的原因, 在於天國中都敬拜上帝, 而地獄中都敬拜自然。天國中壯麗輝煌的景象對應於對真理與良善的渴慕情感; 而地獄中醜陋骯髒的景象則對應於對偽謬與邪惡的熱愛之情。從所有這些事實, 你們可以得出結論——上帝或自然, 到底誰是萬有中的萬有？"
撒旦們如此回應:"以我們目前的狀態, 從所聽到的內容, 我們能總結出:有一位上帝。但是邪惡生活的快樂佔據我們頭腦時, 除了自然, 我們什麼也看不見了。"
[5]幾位天人和那些撒旦離我不遠, 我看見並聽到他們。令我驚奇的是, 有許多在世曾是知名學者的人們也圍著他們。奇怪的是, 他們一會兒站在天人這邊, 一會上站在撒旦那邊, 並贊同他們所站那一邊。
我被告知, 他們位置的變化是因著他們心靈狀態的變化。一會兒支持這,一會兒支持那; 變化無常如同變色龍。天人接著說:"我們告訴你一個秘密, 地上那些飽學之士, 多數人站在自然那邊, 其餘的站在上帝這邊。並且那些站在上帝這邊的, 他們這樣表態, 並非因為他們如此理解, 而只是重複那些他們所得知的, 經常說:自然來自於上帝。從記性中持續地重複表態, 而非同時由思想和認知引發, 這只會造就信仰的外表而已。"
[6]在這之後, 這些撒旦得到保護並隨同兩位天人一同升到天國之中, 看到壯麗輝煌的景象。還被天國之光所啟發, 他們在那裡承認有一位上帝。自然被造, 是為了服務源自上帝的生命。自然本身是死的, 本身做不了什麼, 而是依靠生命而行。
當他們看完這些景象並經歷完這些感受後, 他們下去了。當他們往下降時, 他們的惡欲再次返回思想, 這些惡欲關閉了他們認知的上層,開啟了底層。顯現在他們之上的, 看起來就像夾雜著地獄之火的烏雲。當他們的腳一著陸, 地裂開口子, 他們又墮落到他們同類那裡去了。
77. The second memorable occurrence. Early one day, after I had emerged from sleep but was still not fully awake, I was meditating in the light of the cloudless morning, when through the window I saw something like lightning flashing and heard something like a peal of thunder. As I was wondering what was going on, I heard from heaven that there were some not far from me who were aggressively debating about God and nature. The flashes of light like lightning and the rumble in the air like thunder were correspondences manifesting the conflict and clashing of the arguments. One side was for God, the other for nature.
This spiritual confrontation arose in the following way. Some satans in hell had said to each other, "I wish we could talk to angels from heaven. We could fully and completely demonstrate to them that what they call God, the source of all things, is actually nature. God is only a word, unless it means nature. "
Because the satans believed this with all their heart and soul, and because they longed to talk with angels from heaven, they were given permission to come up from the mud and darkness of hell and speak with two angels who were just then coming down from heaven.
[2] The satans were in the world of spirits, which is midway between heaven and hell. Once they spotted the angels, the satans hurried rapidly toward them.
With voices full of rage the satans began shouting, "Are you the angels of heaven we are allowed to meet face to face to debate God and nature? They call you wise for acknowledging God, but actually you are complete idiots. Who has seen God? Who understands what God is? Who grasps the idea that God rules and has power over the universe and everything in it? Only the lower classes would acknowledge something they dont see or understand. What is more obvious than the fact that nature is the all in all? What eye has seen anything but nature? What ear has heard anything but nature? What nose has smelled anything but nature? What tongue has tasted anything but nature? What hand or body has felt anything but nature? Our physical senses are our witnesses to truth. We swear on the testimony of our senses. Our breathing is another witness - the respiration that keeps our body alive. What do we breathe but nature? Our heads and yours are in nature. Where does the inflow into the thoughts in our heads come from if not from nature? If nature were taken away, could you think at all?" And many other arguments made out of the same ingredients.
[3] After the satans finished, the angels answered, "You speak that way because you trust your senses alone. All the spirits in hell enmesh their thinking in their physical senses. They cannot lift their minds above their senses. So we forgive you. A life of evil and a belief in falsity have closed off the inner realms of your minds so completely that you cannot be lifted above sensory input - unless you happen to be in a state that is remote from the evils in your life and the falsities in your belief. A satan who hears the truth can in fact understand it as well as an angel can; but the satan does not retain it, because evil erases truth and introduces falsity. We are aware, though, that you are in a remote state now and are able to understand the truth we are telling you. Pay attention, then, to what we are about to say.
"You used to be in the physical world," the angels continued. "You left that place and now you are in the spiritual world. Before now, did you know anything about life after death? You previously denied that there was a life after death. You put yourselves on a par with animals. Did you know anything before about heaven and hell? Did you know anything about the light and heat in this world? Do you realize that you are now above the realm of nature and no longer in it? This world is spiritual, and so is everything in it. Spiritual things are so far beyond physical things that not even the least bit of the nature where you used to be can flow into this world.
"Because you viewed nature as some god or goddess, you still view the light and heat of this world as nature's light and heat, although they do not belong to nature at all; in fact, what is light and warm in nature is dark and cold here.
"Did you know anything before about the sun in this world that provides our light and heat? Were you aware that this sun is pure love, while the sun in the physical world is pure fire? You realized that the sun of pure fire in the physical world was the origin and sustainer of nature. Did you realize that the sun of pure love in heaven is the origin and sustainer of life itself (which is love together with wisdom)? Nature, then, which you made into a god or a goddess, is clearly dead.
[4] "If you were granted protection, you could ascend with us into heaven. If we were granted protection, we could descend with you into hell. In heaven you would see magnificent and dazzling things. In hell we would see hideous and filthy things. This difference between heaven and hell exists because all who are in heaven worship God, while all who are in hell worship nature. The magnificent and dazzling things in the heavens correspond to feelings of love for good and truth. The hideous and filthy things in the hells correspond to feelings of love for evil and falsity. From all that we have said, then, make up your minds now about whether God or nature is the all in all. "
The satans replied to this, "In our current state, from what we have heard we are able to conclude that there is a God; but when our enjoyment of evil preoccupies our minds we see nothing but nature. "
[5] I could see and hear the two angels and the satans because they were standing not far from me. To my surprise, around them I saw many who had been famous scholars when they were in the physical world. I was amazed to notice that at one moment the scholars would stand beside the angels and the next moment beside the satans; they agreed with whomever they were standing beside.
I was told, "The changes in place the scholars make are actually the changes of state in their mind as they agree first with one side and then with the next. They are chameleons in their beliefs. What's more, we'll tell you a mystery. We have looked down into the world at famous scholars and have found that six hundred out of a thousand are for nature and the rest are for God. Furthermore, we found that the only reason there were even that many for God was that they often made statements based not on any comprehension but merely on their having heard that nature comes from God. Repeated statements based on something remembered give the impression of belief even when there is no thought or understanding there. "
[6] Afterward the satans were granted protection and went up with the two angels into heaven. They did indeed see magnificent and dazzling things. Enlightened in the light of heaven there, they acknowledged that there is a God, that nature was created to serve the life that comes from God, and that nature of itself is dead. It activates nothing on its own; instead it is activated by life.
When they had seen and learned these things they went back down. As they went down, their love for evil returned. It closed off their intellect at the top and opened it up at the bottom; above it there appeared a dark shadow flashing with hellfire. The instant they set foot on the ground it opened up under them and they fell back down to their own people.
77. The second experience.
One morning on waking from sleep, I was meditating in the light of a fine dawn before being fully awake, when I saw through the window what looked like a flash of lightning, and soon afterwards heard what sounded like a peal of thunder. I wondered where it had come from, but I was told from heaven that there were some people near me who were engaged in a furious dispute about God and nature, and the flash of light like lightning and the roaring in the air like thunder were correspondences, which presented the appearance of a battle and clash of arguments, with one side speaking in favour of God, the other of nature.
This spiritual battle had started like this. There were some satans in hell who said to one another: 'If only we were allowed to talk to the angels in heaven, we should prove to them fully and completely that what they call God, the source of everything, is nature, and God is no more than an expression, unless by it we mean nature.' Since those satans deeply and whole-heartedly believed that, and were so keen to talk with the angels in heaven, they were permitted to climb out of the mud and darkness of hell, and talk with two angels who came down from heaven. They met in the world of spirits, which lies midway between heaven and hell.
[2] The satans on seeing the angels rushed up to them and shouted in a furious tone: 'Are you the angels from heaven with whom we can meet to debate God and nature? You call yourselves wise because you acknowledge God, but oh how simple you are! Who has ever seen God? Who understands what God is? Who can comprehend the idea that God rules, and can control the universe and all its parts? Does anyone but the common people and the crowd acknowledge what they cannot see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is all in all? What else can the eye see but nature? What has the ear ever heard but nature? What else has the nose smelt? What else has the tongue tasted? What else has anyone felt by the touch of his hand or body? Are not the bodily senses our factual witnesses? On their evidence anyone can swear that a thing is so. Is not breathing, which keeps our bodies alive, evidence? What do we breathe but nature? Are not our heads, and yours, in nature? and from where do our thoughts come into our heads but from nature? Take away nature and you cannot think at all.' Much more was said of the same sort.
[3] On hearing this the angels replied: 'You talk like that because you are wholly under the influence of the senses. All in hell have their mental ideas so sunk in the bodily senses that they cannot lift their minds above that level. So we forgive you. A life of evil leading to a belief in falsity has so shut off the interiors of your minds that it is impossible for them to be lifted above the sensual level, except in a state where you are distant from the evils of your lives and your false beliefs. For a Satan can understand truth just as well as an angel when he hears it, but he does not retain it, because evil obliterates truth and substitutes falsity. But we observe that you are now in that distanced state, so that you can understand the truth we are telling you. So pay attention to what we are about to say.
'You lived,' they said, 'in the natural world and there you died, and you are now in the spiritual world. Did you know anything before about life after death? Surely you denied its existence and put yourselves on a level with animals. Did you know anything before about heaven and hell, or about light and heat in this world? Or the fact that you are no longer within nature, but above it? For this world and everything in it is spiritual, and the spiritual is so far above the natural that nature, in which you lived, cannot exert the slightest influence on this world. But you, because you believed that nature was a god or goddess, still believe that the light and heat of this world are identical with the light and heat of the natural world; they are not in the slightest, for natural light is here darkness, and natural heat here is cold. Did you know anything about the sun of this world, the source of our light and heat? Did you know that this sun is pure love, and the sun of the natural world is pure fire? That the sun of the world, which is pure fire, is the source from which nature came into and continues in being? And that the sun of heaven, which is pure love, is the source from which life itself, which is love together with wisdom, comes into and continues in being? So nature, which you make into a god or a goddess, is completely lifeless?
[4] 'You can, if given protection, come up with us to heaven; and we can, if given protection, go down with you into hell. In heaven you will see magnificent and splendid sights, in hell foul and filthy ones. The reason for the difference is that in heaven all worship God, in hell all worship nature. Those magnificent and splendid sights in the heavens are the correspondences of the affections of the love of good and truth; but the foul and filthy sights in hell are correspondences of the affections of the love of evil and falsity. From both these facts you can form a conclusion whether God or nature is all in all.'
To this the satans replied: 'In our present state we can draw the conclusion from what we have heard that there is a God. But when the delight of evil takes hold of our minds, then we can see nothing but nature.'
[5] The two angels and the satans were standing not far from me, so that I saw and heard them. Around them suddenly I saw a large number of people who had been distinguished by their learning in the natural world. I was surprised to see these learned men standing at one moment next to the angels, at another next to the satans, and applauding the party they stood next to. I was told that their changes of position were changes in their mental states, as they favoured one side or the other; for in their belief they were as inconstant as weathercocks 1 . 'And we will tell you a secret,' they went on. 'We looked down to earth to see those distinguished for their learning and we found six hundred out of a thousand on the side of nature, and the rest on the side of God. And those who were on God's side, because they spoke not from the understanding but only repeating what they had been told, kept saying that nature came from God. Keeping on saying a thing from memory or recall, while not at the same time prompted by thought and intelligence, produces the outward look of faith.'
[6] After this the satans were given protection and went up with the two angels into heaven, and saw magnificent and splendid sights. Then being enlightened by the light of heaven they there acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature was created to minister to life, which comes from God; that nature is in itself lifeless and so does nothing of itself, but is acted upon by life. When they had seen these sights and experienced these perceptions, they went down; and as they came down, their love of evil returned and shut off their understanding above, and opened it underneath. Then there appeared above it what looked like a small cloud flashing with hellish fire. The moment their feet touched the earth, the ground yawned open beneath them, and they fell back down to their own kind.
Footnotes:
1. Latin vertumnus, the name of a god of change, but here apparently used for figures which are constantly changing.
77. Second Memorable Relation:
One morning when I awoke from sleep and was meditating in the serene morning light before I was fully awake, I saw through the window something like a flash of lightning, and presently heard something like a crash of thunder. While I wondered where this was from, I heard from heaven that there were some spirits near me disputing sharply about God and nature; and that the flash of light like lightning and the crashing sound like thunder were correspondences and consequent manifestations of the conflict and collision of arguments on the one side in favor of God, and on the other in favor of nature.
The origin of this spiritual contest was this: There were certain satans in hell who said to one another, "O that we might be permitted to talk with the angels of heaven! We would completely and fully demonstrate that what they call God, the origin of all things, is nature; therefore that God, unless nature is meant by it, is a mere word." And as these satans believed this with all their hearts and souls, and wished to talk with the angels of heaven, they were permitted to ascend from the mire and darkness of hell, and converse with two angels then descending from heaven.
[2] These were in the world of spirits, which is midway between heaven and hell. The satans seeing the angels there, ran to them quickly, and cried out in a furious voice, "Are you the angels of heaven whom we are permitted to meet in argument about God and nature? You are called wise because you acknowledge God; but O how simple you are! Who has ever seen God? Who understands what God is? Who can comprehend that God rules, or is able to rule, the universe and each and all things in it? Who but the multitude and the rabble profess what they do not see nor understand? What is more obvious than that nature is the all-in-all? Who with his eye has ever seen anything but nature? Who with his ear has ever heard anything but nature? Who with his nostrils has ever smelt anything but nature? Who with his tongue has ever tasted anything but nature? Who by any touch of hand or body has ever felt anything but nature? Are not our bodily senses the witnesses of what is true? From their evidences cannot one swear that a thing is so? Does not the respiration by which our bodies live testify to this? What else do we breathe but nature? Are not our heads and yours in nature? Whence comes the influx into the thoughts of the head if not from nature? If nature were to be taken away could you think any thing?" And much more in the same strain.
[3] When the angels had heard this they replied, "You talk in this way because you are merely sensual; for all who are in hell have the ideas of their thoughts immersed in the bodily senses, and are unable to raise their minds above the senses. We therefore excuse you. A life of evil and a consequent belief in what is false have so far closed the interiors of your minds that with you any elevation above sensual things is impossible unless in a state remote from your evils of life and falsities of belief. For although a satan can understand truth when he hears it just as well as an angel, he does not retain it, because evil blots out truth and introduces falsity. But we perceive that you are now in a state remote from evil, and can therefore understand the truth we are presenting; therefore give attention to what we shall say."
And they said, "You were in the natural world; but you died there and are now in the spiritual world. Did you ever till now know anything about a life after death? Have you not heretofore denied it, and made yourselves the equals of beasts? Have you heretofore known anything about heaven and hell, or about the light of this world? Or have you known that you are no longer within the sphere of nature, but are above it? For this world and all things of it are spiritual; and spiritual things are so far above natural things that not the least thing of nature, in which you were, can flow into this world. But because you have believed nature to be a god or a goddess you also believe that the light and heat of this world are the light and heat of the natural world; and yet it is not so at all; for here natural light is darkness and natural heat is cold. Have you known any thing about the sun of this world, from which our light and our heat proceed? Have you known that this sun is nothing but love, while the sun of the natural world is nothing but fire; and that it is the sun of the natural world, which is nothing but fire, from which nature derives its existence and subsistence; while it is the sun of heaven, which is nothing but love, from which life itself, which is love joined with wisdom, has its existence and subsistence, and thus that nature, which you make to be a god or a goddess, is manifestly dead.
[4] You, if a guard were given you, could ascend with us into heaven; and if a guard were given us we could descend with you into hell. In heaven you would see things magnificent and splendid; while in hell you see things vile and unclean. The reason of these differences is that all in heaven worship God, and all in hell worship nature; and the magnificent and splendid things in the heavens are correspondences of affections of the love of what is good and true; while the vile and unclean things in the hells are correspondences of affections of the love of what is evil and false. Decide now from all this whether God or nature is the all-in-all."
To this the satans replied, "In the state in which we now are we are able to conclude from what we have heard that there is a God; and yet when the delight of evil fills our minds we see nothing but nature."
[5] I saw the two angels and the satans, and heard what they said, because they were standing not far from me; and behold, I saw around them many who had been celebrated for learning in the natural world; and I wondered why the learned stood sometimes near the angels and sometimes near the satans, and why they favored those near whom they stood; and it was said to me, "Their changes of position are changes in the state of their minds, favoring first one side and then the other; for in faith they are like Vertumni from [Vertumnus, the Etruscan god of change]. And we will tell you a secret: We have looked down upon those celebrated for learning on the earth, and we have found six hundred out of a thousand in favor of nature, and the rest in favor of God; and those in favor of God were so not from any understanding of the matter, but only because they had heard that nature is from God, and had often talked about it; and frequent speaking about a matter from memory and recollection, even when it is not also a matter of thought and understanding, begets a kind of belief."
[6] After this a guard was given to the satans, and they ascended with the two angels into heaven; and they saw things magnificent and splendid; and as they were then in a state of enlightenment from the light of heaven they acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature was created to be subservient to the life that is from God; and that nature in itself is dead, and therefore does nothing of itself, but is acted upon by life. Having seen and perceived all this they descended; and as they descended the love of evil returned and closed their understandings above and opened them below; and then there appeared above them a kind of shadow, flashing with infernal fire. And the moment their feet touched the earth the ground gaped beneath them and they sunk to their own.
77. The second experience. On awaking from sleep one morning, and while meditating in the calm of the early light before it was broad day, I saw through the window, as it were, a flash of lightning, and presently I seemed to hear a clap of thunder. As I wondered what might be the cause of this, I heard from heaven that there were some spirits not far from me vehemently disputing about God and nature; and that the flashing of light resembling lightning and the noise like thunder were correspondences, and consequently were appearances arising from the clash of arguments, on one side for God, and on the other for nature. The occasion of this spiritual contest was this: There were some satans in hell who said to one another: "Would that we were permitted to speak with the angels of heaven; for we would very clearly prove that what they call God, the origin of all things, is nature; and consequently that 'God' is a word without meaning unless nature is meant." Because these satans believed that with all their heart and soul and eagerly desired to speak with angels of heaven, it was granted them to ascend from the mire and darkness of hell and to converse with two angels who were then descending from heaven.
[2] They met in the world of spirits, which is midway between heaven and hell. When the satans saw the angels they ran towards them, calling out in a voice filled with fury: "Are you the angels of heaven whom we are permitted to meet for a discussion on God and nature? You are called wise because you acknowledge God; but, oh, how simple you are! Who has seen God? Who understands what God is? Who can conceive that God reigns, and that He can govern the universe and everything in it? Who but the lowest of the common people acknowledge what they neither see nor understand? What is more evident than that nature is all in all? For is it not nature alone that we see with our eyes, hear with our ears, smell with our nostrils, taste with our tongues, and touch and feel with our hands and bodies? Are not our bodily senses the witnesses of truth? Who by their evidence cannot swear that this is so? Is not our breathing, by which our bodies live, a witness, for is it not nature that we breathe? Are not our heads and yours in nature? Whence comes influx into our thoughts if not from her? If she were removed would you be able to think at all?" And they said much more in the same strain.
[3] When the angels had listened to all this they replied: "You speak in this way because you are merely sensual. All who are in hell have their thoughts immersed in the bodily senses, above which they have no power to elevate their minds: we therefore excuse you. A life of evil and consequently a belief in what is false have closed the interiors of your minds, so that any elevation above what is sensual in you is not possible, unless in a state removed from the evils of life and the falsities of faith. For a satan, as well as an angel, has the power to understand truth when he hears it; but he does not retain it, because evil destroys truth, and introduces falsity. We perceive, however, that you are now in a state removed from evil, and so can understand the truth we speak. Attend therefore to what we are about to say." Then they continued: "You once lived in the natural world and died there, and are now in the spiritual world. Before this did you know anything about the life after death? Did you not formerly deny it, thus making yourselves the equals of the beasts? Had you then any knowledge of heaven and hell, or of the light and heat of this world, or of the fact that you are no longer within the sphere of nature, but above it? For this world with everything in it is spiritual, and spiritual things are so far above natural things that not even the least thing of nature, in which you were, can come into this world. But, because you believed that nature is a god or a goddess, you believe also that the light and heat of this world are the light and heat of the natural world; which is far from being the case, for natural light is darkness here, and natural heat is cold. You knew nothing of the Sun of this world, from which proceed our light and heat. You did not know that this Sun is pure Love, and that the sun of the natural world is pure fire, from which nature exists and subsists; whereas from the Sun of heaven, which is pure Love, life itself, which is Love and Wisdom, exists and subsists; and consequently that nature, which you regard as a god or a goddess, is absolutely dead.
[4] Under the care of a proper escort you can ascend with us into heaven, and with a similar escort we can descend with you into hell. In heaven are to be seen things magnificent and beautiful, but in hell things vile and unsightly. The reason for this difference is that all in heaven worship God, but all in hell worship nature; and the magnificent and beautiful things in heaven are correspondences of the affections of the love of good and truth, and the vile and unsightly things in the hells are correspondences of the affections of the love of evil and falsity. Judge then from all these considerations whether God or nature is all in all." To this the satans replied: "In the state in which we are at the moment we can conclude from what we have heard that there is a God; but when the delight of evil takes possession of our minds we see nothing but nature."
[5] The two angels and the satans were standing not far from me, so that I saw and heard them; and, behold! around them I saw many who had been renowned for their learning in the natural world. I was surprised to observe that those scholars stood now near the angels and now near the satans and agreed with those beside whom they stood; and I was informed that the change in the position they took up indicated the change in their attitude of mind, as it agreed now with one side, and now with the other, for they were as fickle in their faith as Vertumnus, the god of change; and the angels continued: "We will tell you something you will find hard to believe. We once looked down upon those on the earth who were celebrated for their learning, and found that six hundred out of a thousand were in favor of nature, and the rest in favor of God. Moreover, the latter are in favor of God, not from any understanding of the matter, but merely because they frequently repeated, from what they had heard, that nature is from God; for frequent repetition from the recollections of memory, and not at the same time from intelligent thought, induces a kind of faith."
[6] Thereupon the satans were provided with an escort, and in the company of the two angels they ascended into heaven, and saw its magnificence and splendor. While they were there illumined by the light of heaven, they acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature was created to be subservient to the life that is from God, and that nature in itself is dead, and so does nothing of itself, but is actuated by life. After seeing these things, and understanding them, they descended; and as they went down, their love of evil returned, closing their understanding as to what is above, and opening it as to what is below. Then there appeared over it, as it were, an awning overshadowing it, flashing with infernal fire; and immediately their feet touched the ground, it yawned beneath them and they sank down again to their own.
77. SECUNDUM MEMORABILE.
Quodam mane, cum evigilatus e somno, in luce matutina et serena ante plenam vigiliam meditans, vidi trans fenestram sicut fulgur micans, et mox audivi sicut tonitru crepans; cum miratus sum unde hoc, audivi e Coelo, quod sint aliqui non procul a me, qui acriter ratiocinantur de DEO ET NATURA, et quod vibratio lucis sicut fulguris, et crepor aeris sicut tonitru, essent correspondentiae et inde apparentiae pugnae et collisionis argumentorum, ab una parte pro Deo, et ab altera pro Natura: principium hujus spiritualis pugnae fuit hoc: erant aliqui Satanae in Inferno, qui dixerunt inter se, utinam liceret nobis cum Angelis Coeli loqui, ac prorsus et plene demonstrabimus, quod Natura sit quam vocant Deum a quo omnia, ita ut Deus sit modo vox, nisi intelligatur Natura; et quia Satanae illi toto corde et tota anima id crediderunt, et cupiverunt cum Angelis coeli loqui, datum est illis e luto ac e tenebris Inferni ascendere, et cum duobus Angelis tunc descendentibus e Coelo loqui; erant in Mundo spirituum, qui inter Coelum et Infernum medius est:
[2] Satanae ibi visis Angelis velociter accurrerunt, et furiosa voce clamabant, estis vos Angeli Coeli, cum quibus ratiocinando de Deo et de Natura licet congredi; vocamini sapientes, quia agnoscitis Deum, sed oh quam simplices estis; quis vidit Deum, quis intelligit quid Deus, quis capit quod Deus regat et regere possit Universum, ac omnia et singula ejus; quis nisi plebs et vulgus agnoscit quod non videt et intelligit; quid exstantius est, quam quod Natura sit omne in omnibus, quis vidit aliud oculo quam naturam, quis audivit aliud aure quam naturam, quis odoravit aliud nare quam naturam, quis gustavit aliud lingua quam naturam, quis aliquo tactu manus et corporis sensit aliud quam naturam, suntne sensus corporis nostri testes veritatum, quis non potest ex illis jurare quod ita sit, estne respiratio ex qua etiam vivit corpus nostrum, testis, quid respiramus aliud quam naturam; suntne capita nostra et vestra in natura, unde influxus in cogitationes Capitum, nisi ex illa, si aufertur illa, num potestis cogitare quicquam; praeter plura similis 1 farinae alia.
[3] His auditis Angeli responderunt, vos ita loquimini, quia estis mere sensuales, omnes in Inferno ideas cogitationum sensibus corporis habent immersas, nec possunt supra illos elevare mentes, quare nos ignoscimus vobis; vita mali et inde fides falsi occlusit interiora mentium vestrarum, usque ut elevatio supra sensualia apud vos non dabilis sit, nisi in statu remoto a malis vitae et a falsis fidei; nam Satanas aeque ac Angelus potest intelligere verum cum illud audit, sed non retinet, quia malum obliterat verum, et inducit falsum; sed percipimus, quod vos sitis in statu remoto, et quod sic possitis intelligere verum quod loquimur, quare attendite ad haec quae dicemus; et dixerunt: fuistis in Mundo naturali, et obivistis ibi, et nunc estis in Mundo spirituali, num prius quam nunc scivistis aliquid de vita post mortem, numne prius negavistis eam, et fecistis vos pares bestiis; num prius aliquid scivistis de Coelo et Inferno, num aliquid de luce et calore hujus Mundi; Numeri de eo, quod non amplius sitis intra Naturam, sed supra illam, est enim hic Mundus, et sunt omnia ejus spiritualia, et spiritualia sunt supra naturalia, adeo ut ne quidem minimum naturae, in qua fuistis, possit in hunc Mundum influere: sed vos, quia Naturam credidistis Deum aut Deam, creditis etiam Lucem et Calorem hujus Mundi esse lucem et calorem Mundi naturalis, cum tamen ne hilum sit, nam Lux naturalis hic est Caligo, et Calor naturalis hic est Frigus; num aliquid scivistis de Sole hujus Mundi, ex quo nostra Lux et noster Calor procedunt; num scivistis, quod hic Sol sit purus Amor, et quod Sol Mundi naturalis sit purus Ignis, et quod Sol Mundi, qui est purus ignis, sit ex quo Natura exstitit et subsistit, et quod Sol coeli, qui est purus Amor, sit ex quo ipsa Vita, quae est amor una cum sapientia, existit et subsistit; et sic quod Natura, quam facitis Deum aut Deam, sit plane mortua.
[4] Vos potestis, si custodia vobis datur, cum nobis ascendere in Coelum, et nos possumus, si custodia datur, cum vobis descendere in Infernum, et videbitis in Coelo magnifica et splendida, at in Inferno turpia et immunda; discrimina illa sunt, quia omnes in Coelo colunt Deum, et omnes in Inferno colunt Naturam, ac magnifica et splendida illa in Coelis, sunt correspondentiae affectionum amoris boni et veri, at turpia et immunda illa in Infernis, sunt correspondentiae affectionum amoris mali et falsi. Ex his et illis concludite nunc, Numeri Deus vel num Natura sit omne in omnibus. Ad haec Satanae responderunt, in statu, in quo nunc sumus, possumus ex auditis concludere, quod Deus sit, sed cum jucundum mali occupat mentes nostras, non videmus nisi Naturam.
[5] Duo illi Angeli, et Satanae 2 non procul a me stabant, quare illos vidi et audivi, et ecce vidi circum illos multos, qui celebres eruditione in Mundo naturali fuerant, ac miratus sum, quod Eruditi illi nunc starent juxta Angelos, nunc juxta Satanas, et quod illis, juxta quos stabant, faverent, et dictum mihi est, quod mutationes situs illorum, essent mutationes status illorum mentis faventis nunc parti uni nunc parti alteri, erant enim quoad fidem sicut vertumni: et dicemus tibi mysterium, despeximus in Terram ad celebres eruditione, et invenimus sexcentos ex mille pro Natura, et reliquos pro Deo, et hos pro Deo, quia non ex intellectu, sed modo ex auditis quod Natura sit a Deo, frequenter loquuti sunt, et frequens loquela ex memoria et reminiscentia, tametsi non simul ex cogitatione et intelligentia, infert speciem fidei.
[6] Post haec data est Satanis custodia, et cum duobus Angelis ascenderunt in Coelum, ac viderunt magnifica et splendida, et tunc in illustratione a luce coeli ibi agnoverunt quod Deus sit, et quod Natura creata sit ad inserviendum vitae, quae a Deo est, et quod Natura in se mortua sit, et quod sic a se nihil agat, sed a vita agatur. Illis visis et perceptis descenderunt, et sicut descendebant, rediit amor mali, et occlusit intellectum illorum supra, et aperuit illum infra, et tunc supra illum apparuit sicut umbraculum fulgurans ex igne infernali; et actutum cum tetigerunt terram pedibus, hiabat solum sub illis, et relapsi sunt ad suos.
Footnotes: