4293.就内在历史意义而言，“因为作为君王，你与神与人较力，都得了胜”表由于他们的恶欲和幻想中的顽固不化。这从“神”和“人”的含义清楚可知：“神”和“人”是指真理与良善（参看4287节）。此处这些话也有一个反面意义，因为就内在历史意义而言，它们论及雅各的后代，如前所述，他们内在没有真理与良善，只有邪恶与虚假。虚假就是错误的幻想，因为它们就是这类幻想的产物；邪恶是恶欲，因为它们就是这类欲望的产物。
这个民族坚持作代表，也就是说，他们坚持认为他们应该优先于全世界所有民族来构成教会（参看4290节）。此处所指的就是这一事实：他们被允许这样做，是因为他们的幻想和恶欲中的顽固不化。若非在来世与他们有所接触，没有人能了解其幻想和恶欲的性质。为叫我了解这一点，我被恩准有过这类接触，因为我曾在那里与他们数次交谈。他们比其他所有人都要爱自己和世上的财富，也比其他所有人都要害怕丧失地位和名利。因此，他们现在和以前一样，与自己相比藐视其他所有人；同样一心追求财富，而且充满恐惧、胆怯。由于这个民族自古以来就是这样，所以比起其他人，他们能更好地被保持在没有内在神圣的外在神圣中，从而能以外在形式代表构成教会的事物。正是这些幻想和恶欲促成了这种顽固不化。
这也可从圣言的历史中有关他们所记载的许多事明显看出来。在受到惩罚后，他们能表现出其他民族所表现不出来的外在谦卑，因为他们能终日俯伏在地，在土里打滚，直到第三天才起来。他们还能捶胸顿足哀号多日，穿着麻布和撕裂的衣服行走，往头上撒灰或土；又能持续禁食数天，同时痛哭流涕。但他们做这些事仅仅是出于肉体和尘世之爱，还出于对丧失优越地位和世俗财富的恐惧。事实上，没有任何内在事物能打动他们，因为他们根本不知道，甚至也不想知道何为内在事物，如死后生命，或永恒救赎的事。
由此可见，他们因具有这样的性质，故必须被剥夺一切内在神圣，因为这种神圣绝无法与刚才所描述的这种外在神圣相一致；事实上，这二者彼此完全相反。由此还可以看出，比起其他人，他们能更好地扮演教会代表的角色，或更好地充当教会的代表，也就是说，能以外在形式代表神圣事物，却没有一切内在神圣；因而通过这个民族就有可能与天堂建立某种联系（参看4288节）。
Potts(1905-1910) 4293
4293. In the internal historical sense, by "for as a prince hast thou contended with God and with men, and hast prevailed," is signified on account of the contumacy which was in their phantasies and cupidities, as is evident from the signification of "God" and from the signification of "men" as being truths and goods (see n. 4287). These same words have here an opposite sense, because in this sense they are said of the posterity of Jacob, among whom (as shown above) there were interiorly no truths and goods, but falsities and evils. Falsities are phantasies because they are of phantasies, and evils are cupidities because they are of cupidities. [2] That this nation insisted on being representative, that is, they insisted that they should be the church above all nations in the whole world, may be seen above (n. 4290). That this was also permitted on account of the contumacy that was in their phantasies and cupidities, is here meant. The nature of their phantasies and their cupidities no one can know who has not had some interaction with them in the other life; and in order that I might know it, this has been granted me, so that I have occasionally spoken with them there. More than all others they love themselves and they love the wealth of the world; and more than all others they fear the loss of this honor, and also the loss of gain; and therefore also at this day, as of old, they despise all others in comparison with themselves, and likewise seek wealth for themselves with the most intense application, and moreover are timid. As this nation had been of this character from ancient times, they could more than others be kept in a holy external without any holy internal, and thus could represent in external form the things of the church. It is these phantasies and these cupidities that have produced such contumacy. [3] The same also appears from many things related of them in the historicals of the Word. After being punished they could be in such external humiliation as could no other people, for they could lie prostrate on the ground for entire days and wallow in the dust, not getting up until the third day; they could wail for many days, go in sackcloth, in rent garments, with ashes or dust sprinkled upon their heads; they could fast continuously for several days, and meanwhile burst forth into bitter weeping. But these things they did solely from bodily and earthly love, and from the fear of the loss of preeminence and worldly wealth; for it was not anything internal that affected them, because they knew not at all and did not even want to know what anything internal is, such as that there is a life after death, and that there is an eternal salvation. [4] From this it is evident that, being of such a nature, they must needs be deprived of all holy internal, for this in no wise agrees with such a holy external, because the two things are utterly contrary to each other; and also that they could, better than others, serve as the representative of the church, that is, could represent holy things in an external form without any holy internal; and thus that by means of this nation something of communication with the heavens could be possible (see n. 4288).
Elliott(1983-1999) 4293
4293. In the internal historical sense 'for as a prince you have contended with God and with men, and have prevailed' means on account of the stubborn perverseness which was a product of their false delusions and evil desires. This becomes clear from the meaning of 'God' and the meaning of 'men' as truths and goods, dealt with above in 4287, though here the selfsame words have the opposite meaning because in this internal historical sense they are expressions used in reference to the descendants of Jacob, with whom no truths or goods were present interiorly, as shown above, only falsities and evils. Falsities are false delusions because they are the product of such delusions, and evils are evil desires because they are the product of such desires.
[2] As regards that nation's insistence that they should play the representative part, that is, that they themselves should constitute the Church in preference to all nations throughout the whole world, see above in 4290. More than this it is the fact that they were allowed to do so on account of the stubborn perverseness which was a product of their false delusions and of their evil desires that is meant here. No one can know the nature of those delusions and desires unless he has some contact with them in the next life. To enable me to know, such contact has been granted to me, for I have talked on several occasions to those people there. They love themselves and worldly wealth more than anybody else does, and above all they fear loss of position as well as loss of gain more than anybody else does. Consequently today as in former times they despise everyone else in comparison with themselves; they are also utterly intent on the acquisition of wealth, and in addition are full of fear. Because that nation has been like this since ancient times they were better able than others to be kept in external holiness devoid of all internal holiness, and so in outward form to represent things that constituted the Church It was these false delusions and evil desires that produced such stubborn perverseness.
[3] This is also apparent from many things which are mentioned regarding them in the historical narratives of the Word. After being punished they were able to demonstrate an external humility such as no other nation could do, for they were able for whole days to lie prostrate on the ground and to roll themselves in the dust and not get up until the third day. They were also able for many days to beat their breasts, and to go around in sackcloth, in tattered garments, with ashes or dust sprinkled over their head. They were able to fast continuously for many days, and during that time to burst into bitter tears. But these were the expressions solely of bodily and earthly love, and a fear of losing their pre- eminence and worldly wealth. For there was not anything internal which moved them since they did not know at all, and did not even wish to know, what the internal was, such as the matter of a life after death, or that of eternal salvation.
[4] From this it may be seen that because their nature was such they had to be dispossessed of all internal holiness, for this holiness accords in no way at all with the kind of external holiness that has just been described; indeed the two are utterly contrary to each other. It may also be seen that they were better able than others to play the part of a representative of the Church, that is to say, to represent holy things in external form, devoid of all internal holiness; and that thus by means of that nation some kind of communication with the heavens was possible, see 4288.
Latin(1748-1756) 4293
4293. Quod in sensu interno historico per `quia ut princeps contendisti cum Deo et cum hominibus, et praevaluisti' significetur ob contumaciam quae eorum phantasiis et cupiditatibus, constare potest a significatione `Dei' et a significatione `hominum' quod sint vera et bona, de qua supra n. 4287; haec eadem hic oppositum sensum habent, quia de posteris Jacobi in hoc sensu dicuntur, apud quo interius nulla vera et bona, ut supra ostensum, sed falsa et mala; falsa sunt phantasiae quia sunt phantasiarum, et mala sunt cupiditates quia sunt cupiditatum. [2] Quod gens illa institerit ut repraesentativi essent hoc est, ut ipsi prae omnibus gentibus in universo terrarum orbe essent Ecclesia, videatur supra n. 4290;quod etiam id permissum ob contumaciam quae eorum phantasiis et cupiditatibus, hic intelligitur quales eorum phantasiae et cupiditates sunt, nemo scire potest nisi qui cum illis in altera vita aliquid conversationis habuit; utque scirem id mihi concessum fuit; aliquoties enim ibi cum illis locutus sum amant se, et amant opes mundi prae omnibus aliis, ac insuper timent jacturam illius honoris, tum quoque jacturam lucri prae omnibus aliis quapropter etiam hodie sicut olim contemnunt omnes alios prae se, et quoque intensissimo studio conquirunt sibi opes, ac praeterea timidi sunt;
quia gens illa ab antiquis temporibus talis fuerat, potuerunt prae aliis in sancto externo absque omni sancto interno teneri, et sic in externa forma repraesentare illa quae sunt Ecclesiae; hae phantasiae, et hae cupiditates sunt {1} quae talem contumaciam fecerunt; [3] hoc quoque apparet ex pluribus quae in historicis Verbi de illis memorata sunt; potuerunt postquam puniti sunt, in tali externa humiliatione esse, in quali nulla alia gens, per integros enim dies potuerunt humi prostrati jacere, seque in pulvere volutare, nec prius quam tertio die se elevare; potuerunt etiam per plures dies plangere, in saccis ire, in laceris vestibus, cinere seu pulvere sparso super caput; potuerunt per plures dies jejunare {2} continue, ac interea in fletum amarum erumpere; at haec solum ex amore corporeo et terrestri, (c)et ex timore jacturae supereminentiae et mundanarum opum; non enim erat aliquid internum quod afficiebat illos, quia quid internum (o)esset, prorsus nesciebant, et ne quidem scire volebant, ut quod {3} vita post mortem, et quod {4} salus aeterna. [4] Inde constare potest quod quia tales, non potuerit aliter quam ut privarentur omni sancto interno, nam hoc nullatenus concordat cum tali sancto externo, sunt enim prorsus contraria; tum quod illi prae aliis possent repraesentativum Ecclesiae agere, nempe repraesentare sancta in externa forma, absque omni interno sancto; et (t)sic quod per illam gentem posset dari aliquid communicationis cum caelis, videatur n. 4288. @1 after phantasiae$ @2 jejunare per aliquot dies$ @3 hoc est, quid$ @4 quid$