232、记事二：
一段时间过后，我又听见低下传来和之前一样的喊声：“多么有学问啊，多么有智慧啊！”我环顾四周，想看看这时有什么天使出现，瞧，他们是住在喊着“多么有学问”之人正上方天堂中的天使。于是，我向他们谈及这些叫嚷声，他们说：“这些被誉为‘有学问’的人只会争论事物是否存在，很少想到它本就存在。因此，他们就像一吹而过的风，或像没有木芯的树皮、没有核仁的杏壳、没有果肉的果皮。他们的心智已丧失内在判断，仅与身体感觉相连。所以，要是感觉本身不能作出判断，他们就无法得出任何结论。总之，他们就是感觉型的生物，我们把这种人叫做逻辑贩子。之所以如此称谓他们，是因为他们从未得出过任何结论，只会捡起凡他们所听来的任何东西，争论它是否存在，不断使自己陷入自相矛盾的境地。他们最喜欢攻击真理，将其置于辩论中，从而把它们撕成碎片。他们就是那些自认为比世界上所有人都有学问的人。”
听到这里，我请求天使带我下去见识一下。于是，他们就把我领进一个大山洞，山洞的台阶直通到低地。我们下来后，便循着“多么有学问”的喊声而去。看哪，有几百人站在一个地方用脚踩踏地面。起初，我对此感到纳闷，便问：“他们为何以这种方式站着，并用脚底踩踏地面？”我补充说：“这样下去，恐怕他们会用脚在地上踩出一个洞来。”天使闻言笑了，说：“他们之所以这样站着，是因为他们从不思考本就存在的任何事物，只思想它是否存在，并使之成为有争议的问题。由于他们的思维不再往前走，所以他们看似原地踏步。”然后，我靠近聚集在这里的人，看哪，我觉得他们就是人，脸并不怎么难看，而且衣服也很漂亮。但天使却说：“他们在自己的光里是这样，要是有光从天上流入，他们的脸和衣服就都变了。”这一幕的确出现了，然后，只见他们脸色黝黑，衣服就像黑麻袋；不过，这光一撤走，他们就和先前一样了。我随即与其中一些人交谈，说：“我听见你们周围的群众喊着说，哦，多么有学问！所以，我可以就最有学问的话题和你们交换看法吗？”对此，他们回答说：“随便你谈什么，我们都满足你。”
于是，我问他们：“哪种宗教会实现人的救赎？”他们回答说：“我们必须把这个问题分解成若干个问题，在解决这些问题之前，我们无法给你任何答复。讨论的顺序是：1)宗教是否重要；2)有没有救赎这回事；3)一种宗教是否比另一种更有效；4)天堂和地狱是否存在；5)死后是否有永生；除此之外还有很多其它问题。”于是，我便问第一个问题，即：宗教是否重要。他们开始运用大量论据讨论有没有宗教这回事，以及它是否重要。我请他们把这个问题提交给会众，他们照做了。得到的一致答复是，这个命题需要大量调查研究，所以傍晚前不可能完成。我问：“你们一年内能完成吗？”其中一个说，一百年也不可能完成。于是我说：“如此说来，在此期间你们没有任何宗教喽。”他回答说：“你不也得像我们一样，先证明宗教是否存在，再证明被如此称谓的东西是否重要吗？如果宗教存在，那也是为了智者；如果不存在，就只是为了普通百姓。众所周知，宗教被视为一种约束；但问题是，它是约束谁的？如果只约束普通百姓，那它真不重要；但如果它也约束智者，那就很重要了。”
听到这里，我对他们说：“你们根本没有什么学问，因为你们只会思想事物是否存在，不去想办法解决它。若非确切地知道某个事物，并朝它发展，就像一个人一步步朝智慧发展，从而逐渐获得智慧那样，谁能变得有学问？否则，你们甚至用指甲尖也触不到真理，而是越来越把它们从你们的视线中逐出。因此，仅仅推理事物是否存在，好比争论一顶从未戴过的帽子，或一双从未穿过的鞋子。除了你们不知道事物是否存在；甚至有无救赎、死后永生这种事；一种宗教是否比另一种更有效；天堂与地狱是否存在外，还能有什么结果？只要在这第一步陷入泥沼，并在那里拍沙子，而不是把一只脚放在另一只脚前面向前走，你们就不可能对这些主题有任何想法。要当心，免得你们的心智就这样站在判断的门外，内在却逐渐僵硬，变成盐柱，使你们沦为罗得妻子的朋友。”
我边说边离开，他们怒不可遏地朝我扔石头。这时，在我看来，他们就像石雕，其中毫无人类的理性。我向天使打听他们的命运，天使说：“他们的命运是这样：他们被送入深渊，进入荒漠，在那里被驱使搬运货物。由于说不出任何理性的话来，所以他们东拉西扯，胡言乱语，从远处看，就像负重的驴子。”
232、第二：
一段时间后，我听到下面传来“多渊博呀”的喊声，只见有些天使出现了。他们是生活在这个地方之上区域里的天使。天使对我说那些被称为有学问的人只是知道某种事物是这样或不是这样，他们不会去思考。
“他们就象一阵风一样，一阵阵吹过去。或是象树皮一样，或是象没有仁儿的杏核，或是象没有果肉的果皮。因为他们的头脑没有任何的思维，只是有感觉的存在。若通过这些感觉不能足以做出判断，那他们就不能做出任何判断。一句话，他们只是依靠感觉来判断的推理者。
我们称其为推理者是因为他们不能得出任何结论。他们只会就所听到争论不休，他们只会与真理相对抗并使其产生各种纷争，他们就是那些在世间时认为自己比别人更有学问的人。
听到这，我请天使带我去见一见那些人。天使带我来到一个洞中，沿着洞里的阶梯我来到了地面的低层，只见数百个人站在同一个地方用脚踏着地上的土。我问：“他们为什么一起那样站着并踏着土呢？”这样下去，他们会在地上踏出个洞来。”
天使笑道：“他们那样站着是因为他们虽然在争论，但他们思想却是凝固的，所以他们象是在原地永不前进。”
当我走近他们时，他们看上去挺英俊的，并且穿着高雅的衣服。天使说在他们自己的火中他们看上去是这样，但当天堂之光流入此地时，他们的面容变得黑暗，穿着破烂的黑衣。
与他们交谈一会后我说：“我听到人们喊‘多渊博啊’！请充许我与他们一起探讨一些你们最擅长的问题。”
他们说：“你问吧，我们会回答你的问题。”
于是我问：“一个人要有怎样的宗教才能使他被拯救呢？”
他们回答说：“我们需要将这个问题分成几个部分，在此之前我们无法回答这个问题。”
首先要考虑的是宗教是否有什么意义，第二，是否有被拯救的可能，三是否是一种宗教比另一种宗教更优秀，四是否有天堂和地狱，五是否有死后的生命，还有其它许多要考虑的方面。”
于是我问他们第一个问题。他们开始讨论起来，并且延伸出更多问题，比如是否有被称为宗教的这一事物。
我请他们归纳一下回答我的问题，他们说这个问题需要做更多的研究，他们在清晨到来之前不可能做出回答。
我问：“你们是否可以在一年内解决这个问题？”
其中一个人回答说：“一百年也解决不了。”
我又问：“你们没有宗教吗？”
他答道：“我们不是得先看看是否有这样被称为宗教的一种东西吗？若有，宗教一定是为那些明智的人而存在，若不然，它一定是为简单的人而存在的。我们知道宗教具有约束作用，但是，是约束谁呢，若是约束简单人，那么宗教也就没什么东西在其中，若是约束明智的人，则宗教必是有什么东西在其中。
听到这儿我说：“你们并非渊博，因为你们只能进行推断而不能做出任何结论，这样的人怎么能被称作渊博呢。”
如果你们只就事物本身进行争论，那岂不是就象争论帽子合适不合适而不把帽子戴上试试。或者象争论鞋是否合适而不把鞋穿上，你们在一个问题上争论不止而不能有任何进展。
说到这我转身走了，他们生气地向我抛石头。此时，他们看上去就象是石头，丝毫没有一点人类的理性。
我问天使这些人的命运，天使说，他们将会生活在荒山野岭去背重担，因为他们没有理性，所以他们将胡言乱语，从远处看，他们象是负重的驴子。
232. The second experience.
Some time later I heard again from the lower earth the same cries as before 'How learned, how wise!' On looking around to see what angels were there, I found myself in the presence of angels from the heaven exactly above the people who were shouting 'How learned!'
When I talked to them about their shout, they said that these were learned people who only argue about whether a thing exists or not, and rarely reach the thought that it is so. 'They are therefore like winds which blow and pass on, or like bark around trees that have no heart-wood, or like almond shells with no kernel, or like the peel around fruits with no flesh inside. For their minds are devoid of inward judgment, and merely coupled to the bodily senses. So if the senses themselves are unable to judge, they can reach no conclusions. In short, they are creatures of their senses, and we call them logic-mongers. We call them this because they never reach any conclusions, but they pick up anything they hear and argue whether it exists, continually speaking for and against. They like nothing better than attacking truths and by subjecting them to argument tearing them in pieces. These are the people who consider themselves learned beyond anyone in the world.'
[2] On hearing this I begged the angels to take me down to visit them. So they took me down to a hollow, from which steps led down to the lower earth. We went down and followed the sound of shouting 'How learned!' There we found some hundreds of people standing in one place stamping on the ground. I was surprised at this and asked 'Why are they standing like that stamping on the ground? They might,' I added, 'make a hole in the ground with their feet like that.'
The angels smiled at this and said, 'They seem to stand in one place because they never think about anything being so, but only whether it exists, and this they argue about. When thought makes no further progress, they seem merely to trample and wear out one clod of earth without advancing.'
But then I approached the gathering and saw people with not unpleasing faces and well dressed. 'They look like this,' said the angels, 'in their own light, but if light is shed from heaven, there is a change in their faces and clothes.' This happened, and their faces turned swarthy and they seemed to be wearing black sackcloth. But when this light was shut off, they returned to their previous appearance.
A little later I spoke with some of the people in the meeting and said, 'I have heard the crowd around you crying out "How learned!" So I should like, if I may, to enter into conversation with you about matters of the most profound learning.' 'Say anything you like,' they replied, 'and we will satisfy you.'
[3] 'What sort of religion,' I asked, 'will effect people's salvation?' 'We shall split up this question,' they said, 'into several, and we cannot give a reply until we have settled these. The order of discussion will be:
1) whether religion is of any importance;
2) whether or not there is such a thing as salvation;
3) whether one religion is more efficacious than another;
4) whether heaven and hell exist;
5) whether there is everlasting life after death; and many more questions.'
So I asked about the first question, whether religion is of any importance; and they started discussing with many arguments whether there is such a thing as religion and whether it is of any importance. So I asked them to refer it to the meeting, which they did. The agreed reply was that this proposition required so much investigation that it would not be finished before evening. 'Could you,' I asked, 'finish it within a year?' One of them said it could not be finished in a hundred years. 'So,' I said, ' in the meantime you have no religion.'
'Wouldn't you like us,' he replied, 'to prove first whether religion exists, and whether what is so called is of any importance? If it exists, it will be for the wise too; if it does not, it will be only for the common people. It is well known that religion is called a bond; but the question may be asked, "For whom?" If it is only for the common people, it is not really of any importance; but if it is for the wise too, then it is.'
[4] On hearing this I told them, 'You are anything but learned, since you can think of nothing but whether it exists and argue for and against this. Can anyone be learned, unless he knows something for certain, and advances to that conclusion, just as a person advances step by step, and in due course achieves wisdom? Otherwise you do not so much as touch truths with your finger-tips, but drive them further and further from your sight. Therefore reasoning only whether it exists is like arguing about a hat without ever wearing it, or about a shoe without putting it on. What can come of this, except ignorance whether anything exists, and so whether salvation exists, or everlasting life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether heaven and hell exist? You cannot have any thoughts on these subjects, so long as you are bogged down at the first step and pound the sand there, unable to put one foot in front of the other and make progress. Take care that, while your minds stand in the open outside the court, they do not inwardly grow ossified and turn into pillars of salt, making you friends of Lot's wife.'
[5] With these words I left them, and they were so incensed they threw stones after me. Then they looked to me like stone carvings, totally devoid of human reason. I asked the angels what was their fate. They said that their fate is to be plunged into the depths, and there they find a desert, where they are forced to carry loads. Since they can then make no reasonable utterance, they chatter and make idle remarks. Seen from a distance there they look like donkeys carrying loads.
232. The second account:
Some time later, I again heard from the land below the same cries as before, "Oh, how learned!" and "Oh, how wise!" So I looked around to see what angels were then present, and lo, they were angels who lived in the heaven just above the people who were crying out, "Oh, how learned!" I therefore spoke to them about the clamor, and the angels said that the people acclaimed as learned there were the sort who only reason about whether a thing is so or not and rarely think that it is.
"Consequently they are like gusts of wind," they said, "which blow and pass away, or like coverings of bark around trees which have no core, or like shells around almonds without a kernel, or like rinds around fruits without any flesh. For their minds lack any inner judgment and are connected only with their physical senses. If the senses themselves are inadequate to form a judgment, therefore, they can reach no conclusion. In a word, they are merely sense-oriented, and by us are called reasoners.
"We call them reasoners because they never reach any conclusion. Instead they take up whatever they hear and argue about whether it is so, constantly contradicting themselves. They like nothing more than to attack actual truths and thus tear them apart by turning them into matters of dispute. They are the sort of people who think they are more learned than all others in the world."
[2] When I heard this, I asked the angels to take me down to them. So they took me to a cave which had steps leading down to a lower earth. We then descended and followed in the direction of the clamor "Oh, how learned!" And suddenly we saw several hundred people standing in the same place, trampling the soil with their feet. Being astonished by this at first, I asked why they were standing together like that and stamping away at the soil. "At that rate they may use their feet to make a hole in the ground," I said.
The angels chuckled at this and said, "They appear as standing there like that because on any subject they regard nothing as being so, but only consider whether it is and make it a matter of debate. So, since their thought goes no further, they appear only to tread and wear away the same patch of ground without making any progress."
At that point I then went over to the gathering; and behold, they seemed to me to be people of not unhandsome appearance and dressed in elegant clothing. But the angels said, "That is how they seem in their own light; but if light from heaven flows in, their appearance changes, and also their clothing." This, too, actually happened; and then they appeared with dark faces, clothed in black sacks. However, when the light from heaven was taken away, they looked as they had before.
Shortly afterwards I spoke with some of them and said, "I heard the clamor of the crowd around you, crying 'Oh, how learned!' Allow me to explore with you, therefore, some discussion on subjects which are matters of the highest learning."
[3] To which they replied, "Name any subject you please and we will give you an answer."
So I asked, "What must the nature of a person's religion for him to be saved by it?"
In answer they said, "We need to divide this question into several parts, and we cannot give a reply before we come to a conclusion in regard to these. The first consideration must be whether there is anything to religion. Second, whether there is any salvation or not. Third, whether one religion is of any more avail than another. Fourth, whether there is a heaven and a hell. Fifth, whether there is any eternal life after death. And many other considerations besides."
So I asked about the first, whether there is anything to religion. And they began to discuss it, advancing a number of arguments over whether there is any religion, and whether there is anything to what is called religion.
I then asked them to refer the question to the whole gathering, which they did. And the collective response was that the question as put required so much investigation that they could not resolve it by the end of the evening.
"Could you resolve it in a year?" I asked.
And one of them said it could not be resolved in a hundred years.
"But meanwhile," I said, "you are without religion."
To which he replied, "Do we not have to show first whether there is any religion, and whether there is anything to what is called religion? If there is, religion must exist for the wise as well. If not, it must exist only for the common people. We all know that religion is said to be a tie that binds, but the question is, for whom? If only for the common people, then in essence there is nothing in it. If for the wise as well, then there is something in it."
[4] On hearing this I said to them, "You are not learned at all, because you can only speculate about whether a thing is so without settling it either way. Who can become learned without knowing anything for certain, and without making any progress towards it in the way that any person progresses, step by step, and so gradually into wisdom? Otherwise you do not lay so much as a fingernail on truths but remove them further and further out of sight.
"If you reason only about whether a thing is so, is that not like reasoning about the fit of a hat which is never tried on, or about the fit of a shoe which no one wears? What other consequence results but your not knowing whether anything is anything - including, indeed, whether there is any salvation, whether there is any eternal life after death, whether one religion is of any more avail than another, whether there is a heaven and a hell. You cannot have any thought about such things so long as you remain stuck at the first step and keep pounding away at the same piece of ground there without putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward.
"You had better take care that while your minds are standing outside the temple of judgment like that, they do not harden within and turn into pillars of salt, and you become the companions of Lot's wife."
[5] So saying I turned and went, and in anger they hurled stones after me. And at that point they appeared to me like figures carved out of stone, having nothing of human reason in them.
I then asked the angels about their fate; and the angels said, "Their fate is to be let down into an abyss, and there into a wilderness, where they are forced to carry packs. Moreover, because they are then unable to utter anything from their reason, they prattle and talk nonsense; and from a distance there they look like donkeys bearing burdens."
232. The second story: After a while I again heard from the lower land the voices I had heard before, "Oh, how learned!" and "Oh, how wise!" and I looked around to see if the angels would come then, and there they were! They were from the heaven just above those who were shouting "Oh how learned!"
I spoke with them about the shouting, and they said, "These are the learned who only reason 'Is it?' or 'Is it not?' and rarely think 'It is.' Therefore they are like winds that blow and go away, or like the bark on hollow trees, or like shells on almonds without any kernel, or like rinds on fruits without pulp. You see, their minds are without inner judgment and are connected only with their bodily senses, so if the senses themselves don't judge, they can reach no conclusion. In a word, they're just sense - oriented, and we call them reasoners. We call them reasoners because they never conclude anything but pick up whatever they hear and discuss whether it is, always contradicting. They love nothing more than to attack actual truths and mangle them in this way by putting them in question. These are the ones who consider themselves more learned than everyone else in the world."
When I heard these things I asked the angels to lead me down to them. They took me to a cave with steps that led to the lower land, and we went down and followed the shouts, "Oh, how learned!" What did we see but several hundred people standing in one place and stamping on the ground with their feet.
Surprised at this at first, I asked, "Why do they stand like that, beating the ground with the soles of their feet?" I said, "They could hollow out the ground with their feet!"
The angels smiled at this and said, "They seem to stand still like this because they never think that something is so, but only whether it is so and argue about it. And since the thought gets no further, they seem to tread and wear away one single patch of ground and go nowhere."
Then I went closer to the crowd, and, surprisingly, they looked to me like people with not unpleasant faces, dressed in fine clothes. But the angels said, "They look like that in their own light, but if light from heaven flows in, their faces change, and so do their clothes." This happened, and then they seemed to be burnt dark in their faces and dressed in black sacks. But with this light taken away they appeared as before.
I soon spoke with some of them and said, "I heard a crowd around you shouting, "Oh how learned," so please let me talk with you a little to discuss some matters of highest learning."
They answered, "Say what you please, and we'll satisfy you."
"What would the religion through which a person is saved be like?" I asked.
"We'll divide this question into several questions," they said, "and until we argue them out, we can't give the answer. The first question will be whether religion is anything. The second, whether there is salvation or not. The third, whether one religion does more than another. The fourth, whether heaven and hell exist.
The fifth, whether there is eternal life after death. And many more questions."
I asked about the first - whether religion is anything. They began to discuss this with a lot of arguments about whether there is religion and whether the thing called religion is anything. I asked them to refer it to the group, and they did. The general response was that the subject required so much inquiry that it could not be finished within the evening.
I asked, "Could you finish it in a year?"
Someone said, "It couldn't be done in a hundred years."
"Meantime," I said, "you're without religion."
He answered, "It must first be shown whether there is religion, mustn't it? And whether the thing called religion is anything.
If it is, it must also be for the wise. If it is not, it must be only for the masses. We know that religion is called a bond. 'But,' you ask;
'a bond for whom?' If only for the masses, it is in itself nothing. If for the wise as well, it exists."
When I heard these things I said, "There's nothing you have less of than learning, because all you can think is whether something exists, and turn it every which way. Who can become learned unless he knows something for certain and goes ahead in that knowledge as a man goes forward step by step and in this way steadily approaches wisdom? Otherwise you don't even touch the facts with your fingernail but put them more and more out of sight. Debating only about whether something exists is like debating about a cap you never put on or a shoe you never wear, isn't it? What can spring from that except that you don't know whether anything exists, whether there is such a thing as salvation or eternal life after death, whether one religion does more good than another, whether heaven and hell exist? You can't think anything about these things as long as you stay stuck in the first step and trample the sand there, without going forwards, putting one foot in front of the other. Be careful that your minds don't harden into statues of salt while you stand like this outside the door of decision. You could be the companions of Lot's wife!"
After saying these words, I went away, and in their resentment they threw stones after me. By then they looked to me like statues of stone, with nothing of human reason in them.
I asked the angels about their fate, and they said, "Their fate is that they are lowered into an abyss and into a wasteland there and are forced to carry burdens, and then they babble and talk nonsense because they can't produce anything from reason. From a distance there they look like donkeys carrying loads."
232. The second Memorable Relation:
Some time later I again heard from the lower earth the voices previously heard, OH, HOW LEARNED! and OH, HOW WISE! As I looked around to see what angels were then present, lo, they were angels from the heaven immediately over those who were crying, OH, HOW LEARNED. When I spoke to them about the cry, they said: "These learned men are men who merely reason, Is this so or Is it not so, and rarely think It is. They are therefore like winds which blow and pass away, or like the bark around trees without a core, or like the shells of almonds without a kernel, or the rinds upon fruits with no pulp; for their minds are devoid of interior judgment, being united only with the senses of the body, and if the senses do not make the judgment, they can come to no conclusion. In a word, they are merely sensual. By us they are called Reasoners, because they never come to any conclusion but take up whatever they hear, and then, with perpetual contradictions, dispute as to whether it is. They like nothing better than to attack truths, and by bringing them into dispute to tear them to pieces. They are men who think themselves more learned than all the world."
[2] Hearing this, I asked the angels to take me down to them. They then brought me to a cavern from which steps led to the lower earth. We descended and followed the cry OH, HOW LEARNED! And behold, some hundreds were standing in one place beating the ground with their feet. At first I wondered at this and asked, "Why do they stand in that way and beat the ground with the soles of their feet?" and I added, "They may thus make a hole in the ground with their feet." At this the angels smiled and said, "They appear to stand thus because they do not think of anything that it is so, but only whether it is, and this they make a matter of controversy; and since their thought makes no further progress, they appear merely to tread on a single clod and trample it without any progression."
I then approached the men there assembled, and lo, they seemed to me to be men with faces not unhandsome and in fine clothes; but the angels said, "They appear thus in their own light, but when light from heaven flows in, their faces are changed and also their clothes." This indeed came to pass, and they were then seen with swarthy countenances and clothed in black sacking; but when the light was withdrawn, they appeared as before.
Presently I spoke to some of them and said: "I heard the cry of the crowd around you, Oh, how learned; may I therefore be allowed to exchange some words with you on matters which are of the highest learning?"
[3] to which they answered, "Say whatever you please and we will satisfy you."
I then asked them, "What must be the nature of religion whereby man is saved?" They replied: "We must distribute this question into several questions, and until we have come to some conclusion respecting these, we cannot give you any answer. The questions that must be discussed are: 1. Is religion anything? 2. Is there or is there not such a thing as salvation? 3. Is one religion more effective than another? 4. Is there a heaven and a hell? 5. Is life after death eternal? besides many other questions."
When I asked about the first question, "Is religion anything?" they began, with an abundance of arguments, to discuss whether there is such a thing as religion, and whether what is so called is anything. I then begged them to refer the question to the assembly. This they did, and the general answer was that this proposition required so much investigation that it could not be finished within the evening. To my question, "Can you finish it in a year?" one of them said that it could not be finished in a hundred years, whereupon I said, "Meanwhile you are without religion," and he answered: "Must it not first be shown whether there is such a thing as religion, and whether what is so called is anything? If it is, it must be for the wise also; if not, then it must be only for the common people. It is well known that religion is called a bond, but the question is, For whom? If it is only for the common people, then in itself it is not anything; if also for the wise, it is something."
[4] On hearing this, I said to them: "You are anything but learned, for you are only able to think whether a thing is, and to turn the answer to either side. Who can become learned unless he knows something for certain and progresses into it as a man progresses into wisdom, step by step and so successively. Otherwise you do not touch truths even with the finger-nail but remove them more and more out of sight. Reasoning merely as to whether a thing is, is it not like reasoning from a cap which is never put on? or a shoe which is never worn? What comes of it except that you do not know whether there is anything; yea, whether there is such a thing as salvation; whether life after death is eternal; whether one religion is more effective than another; whether there is a heaven and a hell. You cannot think anything about these things so long as you stick fast in the first step and, beating the sand there, do not set foot beyond foot and go forwards. Beware lest your minds, standing thus on the outside at the door of judgment, grow inwardly hard and become statues of salt, and you yourselves friends of Lot's wife."
[5] Saying this, I went away, and in their indignation they threw stones at me. They then seemed to me like stone sculptures wherein is nothing of human reason. I asked the angels respecting their lot, and they said, "Their lot is, that they are sent down into the deep and there into a desert where they are driven to carrying loads. Being unable to proffer anything from reason, they then chatter and indulge in empty talk. From a distance they appear there like asses carrying burdens."
232. II
After some time I heard again from the lower earth the cries I had heard before, "Oh, how learned!" and "Oh, how wise!" I looked around to see any angels who might be present, and saw some from the heaven immediately over the men who were crying, "Oh, how learned!" I mentioned the outcry. They said, "These learned' are such as only reason whether a thing is or is not, and rarely think that a thing is so. They are therefore like winds which blow and pass, or like the bark of trees without pith, or like almond shells without a kernel, or fruit rinds without pulp. Their minds are without interior judgment and are united only with the bodily senses. If therefore the senses themselves do not judge, they can come to no conclusion. In a word, they are merely sensuous. We call them 'reasoners' because they never come to a conclusion but, picking up what they hear and discussing whether it is, quibble endlessly. They like nothing more than to attack essential truths and to rend them by bringing them into dispute. Such are the men who believe themselves learned above all others in the world."
[2] Hearing these things I asked the angels to guide me down to them. They led me to a cavern from which steps ran down to the lower earth. We descended and followed the shout, "Oh, how learned!" And there stood some hundreds at one spot, stamping the ground with their feet.
Struck first by this, I asked, "Why do they stand and stamp the ground with the soles of their feet?" and remarked, "They may hollow out the ground." At this the angels smiled and said, "They seem to stand thus, because they do not think concerning anything that it is so, but only think and discuss whether it is. As the thought makes no progress they seem to tread and trample the very same clod, and not to move." But then I approached the group, and now they seemed to me not unhandsome and to be well dressed. But the angels said, "They appear so in their own light, but if light from heaven flows in, their faces and garments change." And it was so. They then appeared swarthy of countenance and clothed in black sackcloth. But when the light was withdrawn, they looked as before.
Presently I spoke to some of them and said, "I heard the crowd around you shouting 'Oh, how learned!' Perhaps you will permit me to discuss with you some subjects of the highest learning?"
[3] They answered, "Name your subject and we will gratify you."
I asked them, "What must the religion be like by which a man is saved?"
They replied, "We shall divide the question into several, on which we must reach a conclusion before we can answer. The first inquiry must be whether religion is anything; the second, whether there is such a thing as salvation or not; the third, whether one religion effects more than another; the fourth, whether there is a heaven and a hell; the fifth, whether there is eternal life after death; besides others."
I asked about the first point, "Whether religion is anything." With a wealth of arguments they began to discuss whether there is religion and whether what is so called is anything. I begged them to refer the point to the gathering. They did so; and the general answer was that the proposition needed so much investigation that it could not be finished within the evening.
I asked, "Can you finish it within a year?" One of them said it could not be done in a hundred years.
I remarked, "Meanwhile you do without religion."
He replied, "Should it not first be shown whether there is religion - whether what is so called is anything? If it is, it must be for the wise also. If not, then it must be only for the common people. We know that religion is called a bond; but we ask, 'For whom?' If only for the common people, in itself it is nothing. If also for the wise it is something."
[4] Hearing these arguments I said to them, "You are anything but learned, for you can only think whether a thing is and turn it this way and that. Who can become learned unless he knows something for certain, and advances in it as a man moves step by step, and thus gradually arrives at wisdom? Otherwise you do not so much as touch truths with the finger-tip, but hold them more and more out of sight. Reasoning only whether a thing is, is like arguing about a cap or shoe without ever trying it on. What results except that you do not know whether there is anything, - that is to say, whether there is salvation, whether there is eternal life after death, whether one religion is more effective than another, whether there is a heaven and a hell? How can you have any thoughts on these subjects as long as you stick fast in the first step and thresh the sand there and never put one foot before the other or go forward? Beware lest your minds, while they stand thus at the doors outside judgment, indurate within and turn into statues of salt, and you become companions of Lot's wife."
[5] With these words I left, and in indignation they threw stones after me. They appeared to me then like stone images, with nothing of human reason in them. I asked the angels about their lot. They said, "They are let down by an abyss into a desert, and are driven to carrying packs. Being unable to produce anything from reason, they chatter and talk nonsense. At a distance they look like asses heavily laden."
232. The Second Relation:
After some time I again heard from the lower earth, as before, the cries 'O how learned!' and 'O how wise!' And I looked around to see what angels were then present, and lo! those were there who were from the heaven immediately over them that were crying 'O how learned!' And I spoke to them about the cry. They said, 'These 'learned' are they that merely reason whether a thing is or is not, and rarely think that it is so, and therefore, are like winds that blow and pass away, or like barks upon trees without a heart, or as shells of almonds without any kernel, or rinds upon fruits with no pulp. For their minds are without interior judgment and are united with the bodily senses only. If therefore, the very senses do not judge, they can form no conclusion. In a word they are merely sensual, and by us are called 'reasoners' because they never come to any conclusion but take up whatever they hear and discuss whether it is, by perpetually contradicting. And they like nothing more ban to attack very truths, and so by bringing them into dispute to tear them in pieces. These are they who believe themselves learned above all in the world.'
Hearing these things I asked the angels to conduct me to them. And they brought me to a cavern from which steps led down to the lower earth. We descended and followed the cry 'O how learned!' And behold, some hundreds were standing in one place beating the ground with their feet.
Surprised at this at first, I asked, 'Why do they thus stand and beat the ground with the soles of their feet?' and said 'They may thus hollow out the ground with their feet.' At this the angels smiled and said, 'They appear to stand thus, because they do not think concerning anything that it is so, but only think and discuss whether it is, and as the thought makes no further progress they appear merely to tread and grind a single clod, and not to advance.' But then I went towards this congregation, and lo! they appeared to me men of not unhandsome face and in comely raiment. But the angels said, 'In their own light they thus appear, but if light from heaven flows in, their faces, and their garments also, change.' And it was so. They then appeared with swarthy countenances, and clothed in black sack-cloth. But when this light was withdrawn, they appeared as before.
Presently I spoke to some of them and said, ‘I heard the multitude about you shouting 'O how learned!' May I then be permitted some conversation with you, to discuss subjects of profoundest erudition?'
They answered, 'Say whatever you please and we will satisfy you.'
And I asked, 'What must the religion be whereby a man is saved?'
They replied, 'We must divide the question into several, and cannot give answer until we have formed a conclusion upon them. The first consideration must be, Whether religion is anything? The second, Whether there is salvation or not? The third, Whether one religion is more effective than another? The fourth, Whether there is a heaven, and a hell? And fifth, Whether there is eternal life after death? Besides others.' I asked about the first question, 'Whether religion is anything?' And they began to discuss it, with abundance of arguments as to whether there is religion, and whether what is called so is anything. And I begged that they would refer it to the congregation, and they referred it. And the common response was that this proposition required so much investigation that it could not be finished within the evening. I asked, 'Can you finish it within a year?' And one said it could not be done within a hundred years. I replied, 'Meanwhile you are without religion.'
And he responded, 'Should it not first be shown whether there is religion, whether what is so-called is anything? If it is, it must be for the wise also. If not, then it must be only for the common people. It is known that religion is called a bond; but it is asked, 'For whom?' If only for the common people, in itself it is nothing. If also for the wise it is something.'
Hearing these things I said to them, 'You are anything but learned, for you are only able to think whether a thing is, and to turn it this way and that. Who can become learned unless he knows something for certain, and goes forward in that as a man advances from step to step, and so on successively into wisdom. Otherwise you do not so much as touch truths with the finger-nail, but put them more and more out of sight. To reason only whether a thing is, is it not like arguing about a cap which is never put on? or a shoe that is never worn? What comes of it except that you do not know whether there is anything? That is to say, Whether there is salvation? Whether there is eternal life after death? Whether one religion is more effective than another? Whether there is a heaven and a hell? You cannot think anything about these things so long as you stick fast in the first step and beat the sand there, and do not set foot beyond foot and go forward. Beware lest your minds, while they stand thus without outside of judgment, grow hard within and become statues of salt, and you, friends of Lot's wife.'
Having said this I went away, and they in indignation threw stones after me. And then they appeared to me like graven images of stone, wherein there is nothing of human reason. I asked the angels respecting their lot; and they said, 'Their lot is that they are let down into the deep, and into a desert there, and are set to carrying packs; and then being unable to bring forth anything from reason, they chatter and talk nonsense. And from a distance they appear then like asses bearing burdens.'
232. Secundum Memorabile: Post aliquod tempus audivi iterum ex Infera terra, voces quas prius; O quam Eruditi; et O quam Sapientes; et circumspexi, quinam Angeli tunc adessent; et ecce erant illi, qui in Coelo immediate supra illos, qui clamabant, 1O quam Eruditi, erant; et loquutus cum illis de Clamore, et dixerunt, quod Eruditi illi essent, qui solum ratiocinantur, num sit, vel non sit, et raro cogitant quod ita sit; "quare sunt sicut venti qui flant et transeunt, ac sicut cortices circum arbores qui absque medulla sunt, aut sicut crustae circum amygdalas absque nucleo, aut sicut superficies circum fructus absque carne; nam mentes illorum sunt absque interiori judicio, et modo unitae cum sensibus corporis; quare si non ipsi sensus judicant, nihil possunt concludere; verbo, sunt mere sensuales, et a nobis vocantur Ratiocinatores; vocantur Ratiocinatores, quia nusquam concludunt aliquid, sed assumunt quicquid audiunt, ac disputant num sit, jugiter contradicendo; nihil plus amant quam aggredi ipsas veritates, et sic illas discerpere mittendo in lites; hi sunt, qui credunt se prae omnibus in Mundo Eruditos."
[2] His auditis, rogavi Angelos, ut deducerent me ad illos; et deduxerunt me ad Cavum, a quo gradus ad Inferiorem terram tendebant; et descendimus, et sequuti sumus Clamorem, O quam Eruditi; et ecce erant aliquot centeni stantes in uno loco, pulsantes humum pedibus: hoc primum miratus quaesivi, "cur stant ita, et plantis pulsant humum," et dixi, "sic possunt pedibus excavare solum;" ad hoc subriserunt Angeli, et dixerunt, "apparent quod ita stent, quia nihil cogitant de aliqua re, quod ita sit, sed solum num sit, ac litigant; et cum cogitatio non ultra progreditur, apparent modo calcare et terere unam glebam, et non progredi:" at tunc accessi ad congregationem, et ecce apparebant mihi homines facie non indecora, et in vestibus ornatis; sed dixerunt Angeli, "apparent tales in propria luce, at si lux e Coelo influit, mutantur facies, et quoque vestes;" et factum est ita, et tunc apparebant faciebus furvis, induti saccis nigris; sed luce hac subtracta, visi sunt ut prius: mox loquutus sum cum aliquibus ex illis, et dixi, "audivi clamorem turbae circum vos, O quam Eruditi, quare liceat de rebus, quae summae Eruditionis sunt, vobiscum ventilare aliquem sermonem;"
[3] et responderunt, "dic quicquid lubet, et satisfaciemus;" et quaesivi, "qualis erit Religio, per quam salvatur homo;" et dixerunt, "dispescemus hanc interrogationem in plures, et antequam has conclusimus, non possumus responsum dare; ac Ventilatio 1ma erit, Num Religio sit aliquid. 2da. Num Salvatio sit vel non. 3tia. Num una Religio plus efficiat quam altera. 4ta. Num Coelum et Infernum sint. 5ta. Num vita aeterna post mortem sit; praeter plura:" et quaesivi de Primo, num Religio sit aliquid; ac coeperunt ventilare hoc copia argumentorum, num sit Religio, et quae vocatur ita, num sit aliquid; et petii, ut referrent hoc ad Congregationem, ac retulerunt; et commune responsum fuit, quod Propositio illa egeat tam multa inquisitione, ut non possit finiri intra vesperam; quaesivi, "num a vobis possit finiri intra annum;" et unus dixit, quod non possit intra centum annos; et dixi, "interea estis absque Religione;" et respondit, "annon demonstrabitur primum, num Religio sit, et quae ita vocatur, num sit aliquid; si est, erit etiam pro sapientibus; si non est, erit solum pro vulgo; notum est, quod Religio dicatur Vinculum, sed quaeritur pro quibus; si modo pro vulgo, in se non est aliquid; si etiam pro Sapientibus, est."
[4] His auditis dixi illis, "nihil minus quam Eruditi estis, quia non potestis aliud cogitare, quam num sit, et hoc versare in utramque partem; quis potest Eruditus fieri, nisi aliquid pro certo sciat, et progrediatur in illud, sicut homo progreditur e vestigio in vestigium, et sic successive in sapientiam; alioquin veritates ne quidem tangitis ungue, sed plus et plus e conspectu removetis illas; numne ratiocinari solum num sit, est ratiocinari ex pileo, qui nusquam imponitur, aut ex calceo qui non induitur; quid inde profluit, nisi quod non sciatis, num detur aliquid, imo num 2detur salvatio, num vita aeterna post mortem, num una religio plus efficiat quam altera, num Coelum et Infernum sint; de his non cogitare aliquid potestis, quamdiu haeretis in primo passu, et pulsatis arenam ibi, et non ferendo fertis pedem ultra pedem, et progredimini; cavete vobis, ne mentes vestrae, dum ita foris extra judicium stant, intus indurescant, et fiant statuae salis, et vos amici uxoris Lothi."
[5] His dictis abivi, et illi ex indignatione conjecerunt lapides post me; et tunc mihi visi sunt sicut sculptilia ex saxo, quibus nihil rationis humanae inest. Et quaesivi Angelos de sorte illorum, et dixerunt: "sors illorum est, quod demittantur in profundum, et ibi in desertum, et adigantur ad portandum sarcinas; et tunc quia non possunt aliquid proferre ex ratione, garriunt et loquuntur vana, et ibi e longinquo apparent sicut asini portantes onera."
Footnotes:
1. Prima editio: clamabantur
2. Prima editio: nam