328、此后，我们边离开边又谈起这个话题。我说，这些区别之所以存在，唯因以下事实：你们身在灵界，因而本身是属灵的，故而在实质层面，而非物质层面，而实质事物是物质事物的起点。你们在初始层面，因而在单一物中；而我们在衍生层面和复合物中。你们在细节层面，而我们在总体层面。正如总体无法进入细节，物质的属世事物也无法进入实质的属灵事物；就像船上的缆绳无法进入或穿过针眼，或肌肉无法进入或嵌入组成它的一束纤维，一束纤维也无法进入组成它的一根纤维。以下事实在世上也是众所周知的，因而是学者们的共识：属世的无法流入属灵的，但属灵的能流入属世的。这就是为何属世人无法思考属灵人的想法，因而无法表达它们的原因。所以保罗声称，他从第三天听到的话是“人不可说的”（哥林多后书12:4）。
此外，属灵的思维是脱离时空的思维，而属世的思维则涉及时空。因为属世思维的一切观念都有某种时空的东西粘附于它，而属灵的观念则没有这种东西。原因在于，灵界不像自然界那样在时空之中，尽管它有时空的表象。两个世界的思维和觉知在这方面也是不同的。所以，你们能从永恒思考神的本质和全在，也就是说，思考创世前的神。因为你们不是以时间的观念从永恒思考神的本质，以空间的观念思考祂的全在。因此，你们能理解远远超越属世人观念的观念。
接着我又讲述了我曾如何从永恒思考神的本质和全在，也就是思考创世前的神；那时我还没能把时空从我所思想的观念中剔除，于是便陷入困境，因为自然界的观念会涌进来取代神。但我被告知：“剔除时空观念，你就会明白。”然后，我被恩赐剔除它们的能力，于是就明白了。从那时起，我就能从永恒思想神了，但根本不能从永恒思想自然界；因为神在时间之外而在一切时间中，在空间之外而在一切空间中；自然界则在时间之内而在一切时间中，在空间之内而在一切空间中。因此，自然界及其时空必有一个初始和起源，但神没有，因为祂不在时空之中。所以自然界来自神，但并非来自永恒，而是存在于时间中，也就是说，它与其时空的属性一起来自神。
328、此时我们一起离开了，一边走一边又谈起了同样的话题，我说：“我们刚才所说的不同是来自于你们是在精神世界中这一事实。你们存在于精髓状态中，而非存在于物质之中，精髓状态是物质状态的精华。你们体现了最原始，最基本的性质，而我们体现了溶化的和复合的性质。你们体现了特定的性质，而我们则体现了一般化的性质。因为一般人无法变为特定的，所以以物质状态存在的自然事物无法变成以精髓形式存在的精神事物——正象水手的帆绳不能穿入针孔一样，或纤维不能进入到构成它的纤维原中一样，正是这样，世间有学识的人知道自然性无法进入以精神性中，而精神性却可以进入到自然性之中。
“这正是自然的人不能象精神的的人一样地思考的原因。正是这样，保罗说过他在第三层天堂中所听到的东西是无法用语言表达的。”
“另外，在精神性上进行思考就是脱离时间和空间而思考，而自然性的思考则是在时间和空间上进行思考，因为自然性的想法却不是这样。原因是精神世界中不存在时间和空间，而只是在表面上似乎有时间和空间。我们的思想和理解力在这方面也不同。因此，你可以在永恒的角度思考神的实际和无限性。也就是说认为神存在于创世之前，因为你此时是脱离时间和空间进行思考。这样你就会明白自然人无法明白的一些东西。
我然后告诉他们我曾经是怎样从永恒的角度思索神的实质和无限性的。我说因为当时我不能脱离时间和空间进行思索，我变得沮丧。我想到的不是神而是自然界。但我被告知：“抛开时间和空间你就会明白。”于是我明白了。从那以后我就能摆脱时间和空间而思索神。因为神是完全脱离时间和空间的。而自然界却是无时无刻不存在于时间和空间中的。因此自然界注定要有一个起源的时刻，而神却非如此。因此自然界是来自于神的，不是来自于永恒而是来自于时间，或者说因为神而同时有了时间和空间。
328. After this we went apart and had another conversation on this subject. I said that these distinctions arise solely 'because you, being in the spiritual world and therefore spiritual yourselves, are at the substantial, 1but not the material level, and substantial things are the starting points of material things. You are at the level of beginnings and therefore singulars, but we are at the level of derivatives and compounds. You are at the level of particulars, but we are at the level of general ideas. Just as general ideas cannot enter into particulars, so natural things, which are material, cannot enter into spiritual things, which are substantial. It is exactly as a ship's rope cannot enter into or be pulled through the eye of a sewing needle, or as a nerve cannot enter or be inserted into one of the fibres of which it is composed, nor can a fibre enter into one of the fibrils of which it is composed. This fact is also well known in the world, and it is therefore agreed by learned men that the natural cannot influence the spiritual, but the spiritual can the natural. This then is the reason why the natural man cannot think the thoughts of the spiritual man, and so neither can he express them. Paul therefore calls what he was told from the third heaven "beyond description" [2 Corinthians 12:4].
[2] 'A further point is that thinking spiritually means thinking without using time and space; thinking naturally involves time and space. For every idea of natural thought has something of time and space clinging to it, but no spiritual idea has this. This is because the spiritual world is not in space and time, as the natural world is, though it has the appearance of both of them. Thoughts and perceptions there also differ in this respect. You are therefore able to think about God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, that is, about God before the creation of the world, because you think about God's essence from eternity with no idea of time, and about His omnipresence with no idea of space. Thus you can grasp ideas which are far beyond the ideas of the natural man.'
[3] I went on to relate how I had once thought about God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, that is, about God before the creation of the world, and because I could not yet banish time and space from the ideas I thought about, I became worried, since the idea of nature came up in place of God. But I was told, 'Banish the ideas of space and time, and you will see.' Then I was granted the power to banish them, and I did see. From that time on I have been able to think about God from eternity without any notion of nature from eternity, because God is non-temporally in all time and non-spatially in all space. Nature with its time and space must inevitably have a beginning and origin, but not so God, who is not in time and space. Nature therefore is from God, not from eternity, but exists in time, that is, together with its properties of time and space taken together.
328. With that we then departed, and [as we went] we spoke again on the same subject. And I said, "These differences we have being talking about spring solely from the fact that you who are in the spiritual world and are thus spiritual have your existence in essential things and not material ones, essential things being the germs of material ones. You have your existence in primitives and thus in elemental things, but we in derivatives and composite things. You have your existence in the particulars of things, but we in the generalities of things. And as generalities cannot enter into particulars, so neither can natural things which are material in nature enter into spiritual ones which are essential in nature - just as a sailor's rope cannot enter or be drawn through they eye of a sewing needle, or as a sinew cannot enter or be inserted into one of the fibers of which it consists, nor a fiber into one of the fibrils of which it consists. This, too, is known in the world, which is why we have a consensus among the learned that there is no influx of anything natural into something spiritual, but only of something spiritual into something natural.
"This now is the reason a natural person cannot think the same thoughts as a spiritual person, and so neither express them in speech. Consequently Paul calls the words he heard from the third heaven inexpressible. 1
[2] "Furthermore, to think spiritually is to think apart from time and space, whereas to think naturally is to think in terms of time and space. For to every idea of natural thought there clings some element derived from time and space, but not to any idea of spiritual thought. The reason is that the spiritual world does not exist in time and space, as the natural world does, but it exists in an appearance of these two. Our thoughts and perceptions differ in this respect as well. Therefore you can think of God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, that is to say, of God before the creation of the world, since you think of God's essence from eternity apart from time and of His omnipresence apart from space; and in so doing you comprehend matters which transcend the ideas of a natural person."
[3] I then went on to tell them how I was once thinking of God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, that is, of God before the creation of the world; and because I was unable as yet to remove notions of space and time from the ideas in my thought, I became distressed, for instead of God there entered the idea of nature. But I was told: "Remove ideas of space and time and you will see." It was then granted me to remove them, and I did see. From that time on I have been able to think of God from eternity, and not at all of nature from eternity, because God is in all time apart from time, and in all space apart from space, whereas nature is in all time within time, and in all space within space. Thus nature with its time and space could not help but have a beginning and point of origin, but not God, who is apart from time and space. Therefore nature is from God, not from eternity but in time, that is to say, it is from God simultaneously with time and at the same time space.
Footnotes:
328. After this we left, and we talked about this matter again. I said, "The differences only exist because you who are in the spiritual world and therefore are spiritual exist in substance, not in matter, and substance is where material things originate. You are at the beginnings and thus in touch with single things, but we are in touch with the results of beginnings and with compound things.
You are in the parts, we are in the assembled parts, and just as the whole can't enter its parts, things of nature, which are material, can't enter spiritual ones, which are substance - just as a ship's cable can't enter or be pulled through the eye of a sewing needle, or as a nerve can't enter or be put into one of the fibers that it is made up of, or a fiber into one of the fibrils it is made up of. This is known in the world, too, so the learned agree that natural doesn't flow into spiritual but spiritual into natural.
"This, then, is the reason why a person in nature can't think things that a spiritual person does, and therefore can't speak them.
So Paul said the things he heard out of the third heaven were
"inexpressible" [2 Corinthians 12:4]. In addition, thinking spiritually is thinking apart from time and space, and thinking in nature is thinking with time and space, so something of time and space clings to every idea in earthly thought, but not to every idea of spiritual thought. The reason is that the spiritual world isn't in space and time like the world of nature but is in something that resembles space and time. And this is how knowing things and perceiving things differ. So you can think of God's essence and omnipresence from eternity - that is, of God before the world's creation - since you think of God's essence from eternity apart from time and of His omnipresence apart from space. Thus you grasp the kind of things that go beyond an earthly person's ideas."
And then I related how I once thought about God's essence and omnipresence from eternity - in other words, about God before the world's creation - and it bothered me that I could not get space and time out of the ideas in my mind. The idea of nature came in instead of God. But I was told, "Take away the ideas of space and time, and you'll see." And I was able to take them away, and I did see. And from that time I could think about God from eternity, and nature not from eternity at all, because God is in all time apart from time and in all space apart from space, but nature is in all time within time and in all space within space.
Nature with her time and space had to begin and spring from somewhere, but not so God, who is without time and space. So nature came from God. Nature does not reach back to eternity, but is within time - that is, nature came at the same time as nature's time and space.
328. We then withdrew, and speaking further on this subject, I said: "These distinctions exist solely because you, being in the spiritual world and therefore being yourselves spiritual, are in things substantial and not in things material, and things substantial are the beginnings of things material. You are in principles and thus in simples, while we are in principiates and compounds. You are in particulars, we in generals; and just as generals cannot enter into particulars, so neither can things natural, which are material, enter into things spiritual, which are substantial, exactly as a ship's cable cannot enter or be drawn through the eye of a needle, or a nerve enter or be drawn into one of the fiber of which it consists, or a fiber into one of the fibrils of which it consists. This, moreover, is known in the world, it being the consensus of the learned, that there is no influx of the natural into the spiritual but only of the spiritual into the natural. This then is the reason why the natural man cannot think the thoughts which the spiritual man thinks, and therefore cannot speak them. Therefore Paul says that the words which he heard out of the third heaven were unutterable. 1
[2] Add to this, that to think spiritually is to think apart from time and space, and to think naturally is to think with time and space; for something of time and space adheres to every idea of natural thought, but not to any spiritual idea. The reason is, because the spiritual world is not in space and time like the natural world, but in the appearance of space and time. In the same way also do thoughts and affections differ [in the two worlds]. Therefore, you can think of the essence and omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, of God before the creation of the world, because you think of the essence of God from eternity apart from time, and of His omnipresence apart from space. Thus you can comprehend things which transcend the ideas of the natural man."
[3] I then told him that once I had thought of the essence and omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, of God before the creation of the world. Being unable as yet to remove spaces and times from the ideas of my thought, I became troubled; for instead of God, the idea of nature entered in. But it was told me, "Remove the ideas of space and time and you will see." It was then given me to remove them, and I did see. From that time on, I could think of God from eternity and not at all of nature from eternity; for God is in all time without time, and in all space without space, while nature is in all time in time, and in all space in space; and nature with her time and space must needs have a beginning and origin, but not God who is without time and space. Therefore, nature is from God--not from eternity but in time; that is to say, she is from God together with her time, and with her space.
Footnotes:
328. We then drew aside and talked further on the subject. I said, "These differences arise solely from the fact that you, who are in the spiritual world and therefore are spiritual, are in things substantial and not in things material, and things substantial are the beginnings of things material. You are in principles and thus in things single, while we are in things derived from principles, and composite; you are in particulars, we in generals; and as generals cannot enter into particulars, so neither can things natural, which are material, enter into things spiritual which are substantial, any more than a ship's cable can enter or be drawn through the eye of a sewing needle or a nerve enter or be drawn into one of the fibers of which it consists, or a fiber into one of the fibrils which compose it. The world knows this, and therefore the learned agree that there is no influx of the natural into the spiritual, but only of the spiritual into the natural. For this reason the natural man cannot think the thoughts which the spiritual man thinks, or speak them. Paul says that the things which he heard out of the third heaven were unutterable. 1
[2] Add to this, that to think spiritually is to think above time and space, and that to think naturally is to think in time and space, for something of time and space adheres to every idea of natural thought, but not to a spiritual idea. The reason is that the spiritual world is not in space and time like the natural world, but in the appearance of the two; the thoughts and perceptions also differ in this respect. Therefore you are able to think of the essence and the omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, of God before the creation of the world, because you think of the essence of God from eternity apart from time, and of His omnipresence apart from space, and so comprehend things which transcend the idea of the natural man."
[3] I then related how I was thinking once about the essence and omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, about God before the creation of the world, and how troubled I became because I could not yet remove space and time from the ideas of my thought, and the idea of nature entered in place of God. But I was told, "Remove ideas of space and time, and you will see." I was helped to remove them, and I saw. From that time I could think of God from eternity, and not at all of nature from eternity, because God in all time is above time, and in all space is above space, but nature in all time is in time, and in all space is in space. Nature with its time and space could not but begin and arise, but not God Who is above time and space. Nature is therefore from God, not from eternity but in time, that is, together with its time and at the same time with its space.
Footnotes:
328. We then drew aside and talked further on this subject. I said, 'These differences arise only from the fact that you, who are in the spiritual world and therefore, are spiritual, are in things substantial, and not in things material, and things substantial are the beginnings of things material. You are in principles, and thus in things single, while we are in things derived from principles, and composite; you are in particulars, we in generals; and as generals cannot enter into particulars, so neither can things natural, which are material, enter into things spiritual which are substantial, just as a ship's cable cannot enter or be drawn through the eye of a sewing needle, or a nerve enter or be drawn into one of the fibers of which it consists, nor a fiber into one of the fibrils which compose it. This is also known in the world; wherefore it is agreed to by the learned, that there is no influx of the natural into the spiritual but of the spiritual into the natural. Now this is the reason why the natural man cannot think the thoughts which the spiritual man thinks, nor therefore, speak them; and why Paul says that the things which he heard out of the third heaven were unutterable. 1Add to this, that to think spiritually is to think without time and space, and that to think naturally is to think with time and space, for to every idea of natural thought something of time and space adheres, but not to any spiritual idea. The reason is that the spiritual world is not in space and time like the natural world, but is in the appearance of these two; in this respect the thoughts and perceptions also differ. Therefore you can think of the essence and the omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, of God before the creation of the world, because you think of the essence of God from eternity without time, and of His omnipresence without space, and so comprehend such things as transcend the idea of the natural man.'
And then I related that, once I was thinking about the essence and omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, about God before the creation of the world, and that because I could not yet remove spaces and times from the ideas of my thought I became troubled, for the idea of nature entered in place of God. But I was told, 'Remove the ideas of space and time, and you will see;' and it was given me to remove them, and I saw. And from that time I could think of God from eternity, and not at all of nature from eternity, because God in all time is without time, and in all space is without space, but nature in all time is in time, and in all space is in space; and nature with its time and space could not but begin and arise, but not God who is without time and space. Wherefore nature is from God, not from eternity but in time, that is, together with its time and at the same time with its space.
Footnotes:
1. 2 Corinthians 12:4.
328. Post haec secessimus, ac iterum loquuti sumus de hac re, et dixi, 1quod discrimina illa non aliunde existant, quam "quia vos, qui in Mundo spirituali estis, et inde spirituales, estis in substantialibus et non in materialibus, ac substantialia sunt initia materialium; vos estis in principiis et sic in singularibus, nos autem in principiatis et compositis; vos estis in particularibus, nos autem in communibus; et sicut communia non possunt intrare in particularia, ita nec possunt naturalia, quae sunt materialia, intrare in spiritualia quae sunt substantialia, prorsus sicut funis nauticus non potest intrare seu traduci per foramen acus netorii, aut sicut Nervus non potest intrare seu induci in unam ex fibris ex quibus ille est, nec fibra in unam ex fibrillis ex quibus illa est; hoc etiam in Mundo notum est, quare consensus Eruditorum est, quod non detur influxus naturalis in spirituale, sed spiritualis in naturale. Haec nunc causa est, quod naturalis homo non possit cogitare illa quae spiritualis homo, et inde nec loqui illa; quare Paulus illa quae audivit ex Tertio Coelo, dicit ineffabilia.
[2] Accedit, quod spiritualiter cogitare sit absque tempore et spatio cogitare, et quod naturaliter, sit cum tempore et spatio; adhaeret enim omni ideae cogitationis naturalis aliquid e tempore et spatio, non autem alicui ideae spirituali; causa est, quia spiritualis Mundus non est in spatio et tempore, sicut Mundus naturalis, sed est in duorum illorum apparentia: in hoc differunt etiam cogitationes et perceptiones; quare vos potestis cogitare de Dei Essentia et Omnipraesentia ab aeterno, hoc est, de Deo ante Creationem Mundi, quoniam cogitatis de Dei Essentia ab aeterno absque tempore, et de Ipsius Omnipraesentia absque spatio, et sic comprehenditis talia, quae ideas Naturalis hominis transcendunt:"
[3] et tunc narravi, quod semel cogitaverim de Dei Essentia et Omnipraesentia ab aeterno, hoc est, de Deo ante Creationem Mundi, et quod quia nondum potui removere spatia et tempora ab ideis cogitationis meae, anxius factus sum, intravit enim idea Naturae pro Deo; sed dictum mihi est, "remove ideas spatii et temporis, et videbis;" et datum est removere, et vidi; et ab illo tempore potui cogitare Deum ab aeterno, et prorsus non Naturam ab aeterno, quia Deus in omni tempore est absque tempore, et in omni spatio est absque spatio, Natura autem in omni tempore est in tempore, et in omni spatio est in spatio; et Natura cum suo tempore et spatio non potuit non inchoare et oriri, non autem Deus Qui 2est absque tempore et spatio; quare Natura a Deo est, non ab aeterno, sed in tempore, hoc est, una cum suo tempore et simul spatio.
Footnotes:
1. Prima editio: dixi;
2. Prima editio: DeusQui