415、对此，我补充以下记事：
一天早上，我刚刚睡醒，还没有完全清醒，就在黎明的曙光中陷入沉思。这时，我透过窗户看见某种东西，就像一道闪电，很快又听到某种东西，就像一阵雷声。我正纳闷这是从哪来的，就听见天上传来这些话：“离你不远处有人在激烈争论神和自然。闪电般的闪光和雷鸣般的轰鸣是对应，因而是表现他们的观点冲突和碰撞的表象，因为一方发言赞成神，而另一方发言赞成自然。”造成这次属灵争战的原因如下：在地狱，一些撒旦彼此说：“倘若允许我们与天上的天使对话，我们必充分、彻底地向他们证明，他们所宣称的神，也就是万物的源头，就是大自然。若不是指大自然，神只是一个词而已。”由于这些撒旦深信不疑，还渴望与天上的天使对话，所以他们得以从地狱的泥沼和黑暗中升上来，与两位从天上下来的天使对话。他们在天堂与地狱中间的灵人界会合。
一看见天使，这些撒旦就冲到他们面前，以愤怒的语气叫喊说：“你们就是天上派来与我们相会，以辩论神与自然的天使吗？就因你们承认神，你们就自称智慧；哦，你们简直太天真了！谁见过神？谁明白神是什么？谁能领悟神掌管或能掌管整个宇宙及其万有？除了那些无知草民和庸俗大众外，谁会承认看不见、不明白的东西？还有比自然是万有中的万有更明显的事实吗？眼所看的、耳所听的、鼻所闻的、舌所尝的、手或身体所摸的，除了大自然还有什么？我们的身体感觉不就是真理的唯一见证者吗？谁不会基于自己的经验发誓说，事实的确如此？你们的脑袋岂不是在自然界？你们脑子里的想法不是从自然界流入的吗？还能出自何处？若拿走自然界，你们还能思考吗？”像这样的话还有很多。
闻听此言，天使回应说：“你们这样说，是因为你们完全受感官影响。凡在地狱者都将其思想观念浸没于身体感官，从而无法将其心智提升至这个层面之上。所以我们原谅你们。罪恶的生活和由此导致的虚假信仰已关闭你们的心智内层，以致你们要升至感官层之上是不可能的，除非你们远离罪恶的生活和虚假的信仰。事实上，撒旦在听到真理时，也能理解，和天使一样；只是不会保留它，因为罪恶会抹杀真理，换上虚假。不过，我们发觉你们现处于远离（罪恶生活和虚假信仰）的状态，因此你们能理解我们所说的真理。所以，请留心听我们要说的话。”然后，他们继续说：“你们曾活在自然界，并在那里死去，现如今你们在灵界。在此之前，你们知道死后的生命吗？你们以前不是否认它的存在、把自己等同于动物吗？你们以前知道天堂和地狱，或这个世界的光和热吗？知道你们已不在自然界，而是在它之上的事实吗？这个世界及其万物都是属灵的，属灵事物远在属世事物之上，以致自然界的东西丝毫不会流入这个世界。但是，由于你们将自然界奉为神明或女神，还以为这个世界的光和热就是自然界的光和热。然而，它们毫不相干，因为在这里，属世之光是黑暗，属世之热是寒冷。你们了解这个世界的太阳，就是我们光和热的源头吗？你们知道这轮太阳纯然是爱，而自然界的太阳纯然是火吗？纯然是火的尘世太阳是自然界生成并持续存在的源头；而纯然是爱的天堂太阳则是生命本身，也就是爱与智慧生成并持续存在的源头。所以，你们奉为神明或女神的自然界完全是死的，毫无生命可言。”
“你们若得到保护，就能和我们一同升入天堂；我们若得到保护，也能和你们一同下入地狱。在天堂，你们会看到壮丽辉煌的景象，而在地狱，则会看到肮脏污秽的景象。这就是天堂和地狱的不同，因为在天堂，所有人都敬拜神；而在地狱，所有人都敬拜自然。天堂的壮丽辉煌是对良善与真理之情感的对应，而地狱的肮脏污秽则是对邪恶与虚假之欲望的对应。从这两方面的事实，关于神和自然，究竟哪一个是万有中的万有，你们自己就能得出一个结论。”对此，撒旦们回答说：“就我们目前的状态来说，我们能从刚才所听到的这一切得出结论，神才是万有中的万有。但是，当邪恶的快乐主宰我们的头脑时，除了自然界外，我们什么也看不到。”
两位天使和两个撒旦就站在离我不远的右方，所以我能看到并听到他们。突然，我看见许多在自然界以学问著称的灵人出现在他们周围。我惊讶地发现，这些学者时而靠近天使，时而靠近撒旦，靠近哪一边就为哪一边鼓掌。我被告知，其位置的改变代表了他们心态的改变，因为他们时而赞成这一边，时而赞成那一边；他们的行为就像墙头草。“我们会告诉你一个秘密，”天使说，“我们俯视大地，看到那些著名学者运用自己的判断思想神和自然；一千个当中竟有六百个站在自然这一边，剩下的站在神这一边。不过，我们发现他们站在神这一边，不是出于任何理解，乃因他们听说自然来自神，便经常这么说。只是出于记忆或回想、而非同时在思维和理性的促使下不停地说一件事，就会制造一种表面的信仰。”
此后，撒旦得到保护，与两位天使一同升入天堂，看到壮丽辉煌的景象。在那里，他们在天堂之光的光照下，承认有一位神，自然界被造是为了服务在神里面并来自神的生命；自然本身是无生命的，因而凭自己什么也做不了，而是被生命驱动。看到并觉知这一切后，他们下来了；随着他们下降，他们对邪恶的爱又返回来，并关闭了在上的理解力，打开了在下的理解力。然后，它上面看似蒙上一层闪烁着地狱之火的面纱。他们双脚一触及大地，脚下的地面就裂开了，他们沉入自己的同类那里。
415、在此我作以下段陈述：
一天清晨，在半睡半醒间我看到窗处有闪电般的光，并听到象雷般的声音。接下来我听到天国中传来以下内容：
“离你不远的地方有人在争论神和自然。间电和雷声象征着他们相互冲突的观点，一方是站在神一边的，一方是站在自然一边的。”
精神上相互冲突的原因是。在地狱中有些精灵说：“若我们能同天国中的天使讲话，我们将清楚地向他们表明，他们所说的来自于主的一切都是来自于自然。因此神只是一种称呼而以，除非他们认为神就是自然。”因为这些精灵十分想与天使谈论这一点，他们获许离开地狱与从天国中下降而来的天使谈论。他们现在处于天国和地狱之间的精神世界中。
看到天使后，恶魔精灵们冲过去大声说：“你们一定是要与我们谈论神和自然的天使了。人们都说你们明智，因为你们承认神，但是你们是多简单啊，有谁见过神呢？有谁知道神是什么吗？有谁知道神怎样掌管宇宙并且控制每一事物呢？只有低等的凡人才会承认他所不能看到和理解的东西，谁看不到自然才是一切呢？谁亲眼看到的不是自然吗？谁听到的不是自然呢？所闻、所学、所感觉到的不都是自然吗？我们躯体的感觉不是来自于自然吗？你的头脑不是存在于自然吗？头脑中的思想不是来自于自然吗？离开自然——你还能有任何思想吗？
他们还说了许多与以上类似的话。
听了他们的话后，天使说：“你们这样讲是因为你们是建立在感觉之上的。地狱中的一切精灵的思想都是处于躯体的感觉之中。他们无法提升他们的思想。我们因此原谅你们。罪恶的生活和错误的信仰使得你们头脑的内在关闭起来，所以提升你们的头脑是不可能的，除非你能排除从前的罪恶和错误信仰。因为恶的精灵也和天使一样能够理解真理，只是恶的精灵不将它保存在心中。因为罪恶将真理驱除而接收了谬误。但是，我们感到你们现在处于那种脱离了罪恶和谬误的状态，所以你们能理解我们将要讲的真理。注意听，我们将告诉你们。”
于是天使们说：“你们从前在世间、死后、现在处于精神世界中。从前你们知道有死后的生命吗？你们从前不是否认它认为自己与动物一样吗？你们从前知道关于天国和地狱的任何东西吗？知道这个世界的光和热吗？你从前知道自己现在已经不受躯体的束缚而处于其上吗？现在所在的这个世界是精神性的，精神的事物是高于自然的事物的。没有任何世间的事物能进入到精神世界中。因为你认为自然就象是或者是女神一样的。但它们是完全不同的。因为自然之光在这里是黑暗，自然之热在这里是寒冷。”
“你知道这个世界中的太阳吗，从它而来的是我们的光和热？你们知道这个太阳是纯粹的爱，而世间的太阳却是火吗？作为火的世间的太阳是自然产生和存在的源泉。天国中纯粹的爱是生命的源泉，它是爱与智慧相结合存在并发展的源泉。因此你们所认为神或女神的自然是没有生命的。”
“若得到允许和保护，你们可以和我们一起升入到天国中或者我们与你们一起到地狱中。在天国中你会看到壮观的景象，而在地狱中我们却只能看到污秽。原因就在于天国中一切精灵敬拜神，而地狱中一切精灵敬拜自然。因此天国中壮观的景象是与对善和真理的情感相对应的，而地狱中的污秽是与对罪恶和谬误的爱相对应的。
“自己推论一下，到底是神还是自然是处于万物之中呢？”
听到这恶精灵回答：“在目前我们所处的状态中，我们可以知道神是存在于万物之中，但是当罪恶控制我们的头脑时，我们就只知道自然。”
两个天使和两个恶灵站在离我不远的地方，所以我听到了他们的交谈。突然间我看到他们周围有好多在世间时很有学问的精灵，我在想这些人一些会支持天使，一些会支持恶精灵们。但我得知，他们的立场是变化的。
我得知他们是变色龙。“再告诉你个秘密。我们看到世间那些因为自己的判断力而被称为有学问的人，一千个人中有六百个是站在自然一边，其余的站在神一边。但是我们发现处于神一边的人是因为他们经常说自然是来自于神而并非是出于理解而站在神一边，而只是因为他们被告之是这样的。只是不停地出于记忆而这么说，并不是思想和才智的结果。”
之后，恶精灵们得到允许进入天国中并看到壮观的景象。他们此时处于受启发状态。他们承认有神存在，并且神创造了自然以服务于生命。自然来自于神，自然自身是没有生命的，自身并不能完成任何事。
看到并明白这些后，他们下降下来，在下降时，他们对罪恶的爱又回来了。将他们的才智关闭，并在其上出现了纱一样的东西，闪着地狱之火。当他们的脚触地后，地张开了，他们又回到也他们同类的恶精灵中去了。
415. I shall add here the following account of an experience.
One morning on waking from sleep, I was meditating in the light of a fine dawn before being fully awake, when I saw through the window what looked like a flash of lightning, and soon afterwards heard what sounded like a peal of thunder. I wondered where it had come from, and heard these words from heaven: 'There are some near you who are engaged in a furious dispute about God and nature. The flash of light like lightning and the roaring in the air like thunder are correspondences, which present the appearance of a battle and a clash of arguments, with one side speaking in favour of God, the other of nature.'
This spiritual battle had started like this. There were some satans in hell who said to one another, 'If only we were allowed to talk to angels in heaven, we should prove to them fully and completely that what they call God, the source of everything, is nature, and God is nor more than an expression, unless we mean by it nature.' Since those satans deeply and whole-heartedly believed that, and were so keen to talk with the angels in heaven, they were permitted to climb out of the mud and darkness of hell, and talk with two angels who came down from heaven. They met in the world of spirits which lies midway between heaven and hell.
[2] The satans on seeing the angels rushed up to them, and shouted in a furious tone, 'Are you the angels from heaven with whom we can meet to debate God and nature? You call yourselves wise because you acknowledge God, but oh how simple you are! Who has ever seen God? Who understands what God is? Who can comprehend that God rules, and can control the universe and all its parts? Does anyone but the common people and the crowd acknowledge what they cannot see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is the all in all? What else has the eye seen but nature? What else has the ear heard? What else has the nose smelt? What else has the tongue tasted? What else has anyone felt by the touch of his hand or body? Are not our bodily senses our only factual witnesses? It is on their evidence that anyone can swear that a thing is so. Are not your heads in nature? What do the thoughts in our heads come from but from that influence? Take away nature and you cannot think at all.' Much more was said of the same sort.
[3] On hearing this the angels replied, 'You talk like that because you are wholly under the influence of the senses. All in the hells have their mental ideas so sunk in the bodily senses that they cannot lift their minds above that level. So we forgive you. A life of evil leading to a belief in falsity has so shut off the inner levels of your minds that it is impossible for them to be lifted above the sensual level, except in a state where you are distant from the evils of your lives and your false beliefs. For a satan can understand truth just as well as an angel when he hears it, but he does not retain it, because evil obliterates truth and substitutes falsity. But we observe that you are now in that distanced state, so that you can understand the truth we are telling you. So pay attention to what we are about to say.
'You lived,' they said, 'in the natural world and there you died, and you are now in the spiritual world. Did you know anything before about life after death? Surely you denied its existence and put yourselves on a level with animals. Did you know anything before about heaven and hell, or about light and heat in this world? Or the fact that you are no longer within nature, but above it? For this world and everything in it are spiritual, and the spiritual is so far above the natural that nature cannot exert the slightest influence on this world. But you, because you believed that nature was a god or a goddess, still believe that the light and heat of this world are identical with the light and heat of the natural world. They are not in the slightest, for natural light is here darkness, and natural heat here is cold. Did you know anything about the sun of this world, the source of our light and heat? Did you know that this sun is undiluted love and the sun of the natural world is undiluted fire? That the sun of the world, being undiluted fire, is the source from which nature came into and continues in being? So nature, which you make into a god or a goddess, is completely lifeless.
[4] 'You can, if given protection, come up with us into heaven; and we can, if given protection, go down with you into hell. In heaven you will see magnificent and splendid sights, in hell foul and filthy ones. The reason for the difference is that in heaven all worship God, in the hells all worship nature. Those magnificent and splendid sights in the heavens are the correspondences of the affections for good and truth; but the foul and filthy sights in hell are the correspondences of the desires for evil and falsity. From both these facts you can now form a conclusion whether God or nature is the all in all.'
To this the satans replied, 'In our present state we can draw the conclusion from what we have heard that God is the all in all. But when the delight of evil takes hold of our minds, then we can see nothing but nature.'
[5] The two angels and the two satans were standing on the right not far from me, so I could see and hear them. Around them I suddenly saw many spirits who had been distinguished for their learning in the natural world. I was surprised to see these learned men standing at one moment next to the angels, at another next to the satans, and applauding the party they stood next to. I was told that their changes of position were changes in their mental states, as they favoured one side or the other, for they behave like weathercocks. 'And we will tell you a secret,' they said. 'We looked down to earth to see those distinguished scholars who had used their own judgment to think about God and nature, and we found six hundred out of a thousand on the side of nature, and the rest on the side of God. But we found them to be on the side of God, not because of any understanding, but because, relying on having been told that nature comes from God, they had often said so. Keeping on saying a thing from memory or recall, while not at the same time prompted by thought and intelligence, produces an appearance of belief.'
[6] After this the satans were given protection and went up with the two angels into heaven, and saw magnificent and splendid sights. On being enlightened by the light of heaven they there acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature was created to minister to life, which is in God and comes from Him; and that nature is in itself lifeless, and so does nothing of itself, but is acted upon by life. When they had seen these sights and experienced these perceptions, they went down; and as they came down, their love of evil returned and shut off their intellect above, opening it underneath. Then there appeared above what looked like a covering flashing with hellish fire. The moment their feet touched the earth, the ground yawned beneath them, and they sank back down to their own kind.
415. To this I will append the following narrative account:
One morning as I awoke from sleep, while meditating in the serene morning light before being fully awake, I saw through the window what seemed to be flashes of lightning, and presently heard what seemed to be the rumbling of thunder. Then, as I wondered what the cause was, I heard from heaven the following:
"There are people not far from you who are arguing bitterly about God and nature. The flashing of light like lightning and the rumbling of the air like thunder are correspondences and thus manifestations of the conflict and clash of their arguments, one side on the side of God, and the other on the side of nature."
The reason for the spiritual conflict was this. There were satanic spirits in hell who said to each other, "If we could only speak with angels from heaven! We would absolutely and thoroughly show that what they call God, from whom all things flow, is nature, and thus that God is only a term unless by it they mean nature." And because those satanic spirits believed this with all their heart and all their soul, and longed as well to speak with angels from heaven, it was granted them to ascend from the muck and gloom of hell and to speak then with two angels descending from heaven. They were in the world of spirits, which is midway between heaven and hell.
[2] Seeing the angels there, the satanic spirits rushed up to them and in a furious voice cried out, "You must be the angels from heaven that we are allowed to meet with to argue about God and nature. People call you wise because you acknowledge God, but oh, how simple you are! Does anyone see God? Does anyone understand what God is? Does anyone comprehend how God rules and can rule the universe and each and all things of it? Who but the lower-class and common person acknowledges what he does not see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is the all in all things? Who has seen anything with his eye but nature? Who has heard anything with his ear but nature? Who has smelled anything with his nose but nature? Who has tasted anything with his tongue but nature? Who has felt anything with the touch of his hand and body but nature? Are not the senses of our body the only attesters of truth? Who cannot swear on the basis of them that a thing is so? Do your heads not exist in nature? The thoughts in your heads - from what origin does anything flow into them but from nature? Take nature away. Are you capable of any thought?"
And they added many other things of a similar nature.
[3] After listening to this, the angels replied, "You speak as you do because you are merely sense-oriented. All spirits in hell keep the ideas of their thoughts immersed in the senses of their body, nor can they elevate their minds above them. We pardon you therefore. A life of evil and a consequent faith in falsity has closed up the inner faculties of your mind, so that to rise above things of the senses is in your case impossible - unless, that is, you are in a state removed from the evils of your life and the falsities of your faith. For a satanic spirit can understand truth when he hears it just as well as an angel, only he does not retain it, because evil wipes out the truth and introduces falsity. However, we perceive that you are now in such a removed state, and so can understand the truth in what we say. Pay attention, therefore, what we are about to tell you."
Then the angels said, "You were in the natural world, and died there, and now you are in the spiritual world. Did you know anything before this about the life after death? Did you not previously deny it, and regard yourselves on a par with animals? Did you know anything beforehand about heaven and hell, or about the light and warmth of this world? Or the fact that you are no longer in the confines of nature but above it? For this world and all things in it are spiritual, and spiritual things are above natural ones, so much so that not the least thing of nature can enter into this world. But because you believed nature to be a kind of god or goddess, you also now believe that the light and warmth of this world are the same as the light and warmth of the natural world, even though they are not in the least the same. For natural light here is darkness, and natural warmth here is cold.
"Did you know anything about the sun of this world, from which comes our light and our warmth? Did you know that this sun is pure love, and the sun of the natural world nothing but fire? That the sun of the world, which is nothing but fire, is the origin from which nature came into existence and continues in existence? That the sun of heaven, which is pure love, is the origin from which life itself, which is love combined with wisdom, came into existence and continues in existence? And thus that nature, which you regard as a god or goddess, is wholly without life?
[4] "If given protection, you could ascend with us into heaven, and if given protection, we could descend with you into hell; and in heaven you would see magnificent and splendid sights, whereas in hell we would see squalid and filthy ones. These differences exist, because all in heaven worship God, and all in hell worship nature. Thus the magnificent and splendid sights in heaven are correspondences of affections for good and truth, while the squalid and filthy sights in hell are correspondences of lusts for evil and falsity.
"Draw your own conclusion, now, from the one and the other, as to whether God or nature is the all in all things."
To this the satanic spirits replied, "In the state in which we are now, we can conclude from what you have said that it is God; but when the delight of evil seizes our minds, we see nothing but nature."
[5] The two angels and two satanic spirits were standing not far from me on the right, so that I saw them and heard them. Moreover, I suddenly saw around them a multitude of spirits who in the natural world had been renowned for their learning; and I wondered at the fact that these learned people would stand, sometimes with the angels, sometimes with the satanic spirits, and that they would side with those with whom they were standing. But I was told that their changes in position reflected changes in their state of mind as they favored now the one side, now the other.
"For they are chameleons," I was told. "Moreover, we will tell you a mystery. We looked down upon the earth at people renowned for their learning, who consulted their own judgment in what they thought concerning God and nature; and we found six hundred out of a thousand on the side of nature, and the rest on the side of God. However, we found the latter on the side of God because they frequently said that nature is from God - not owing to any understanding, but only in consequence of what they had been told; and frequently saying a thing from memory and recollection, and not at the same time as a result of thought and intelligence, induces a kind of faith."
[6] After that the satanic spirits were given protection, and they ascended with the two angels into heaven, where they saw magnificent and splendid sights. Moreover, being then in a state of enlightenment from the light of heaven there, they acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature was created to serve the life which is in God and from God; also that nature in itself is lifeless, and thus does nothing of itself, but is actuated by life.
Having seen and perceived these things, they descended, and as they descended, their love of evil returned, which closed up their intellect above and opened it below; and then above it a kind of veil appeared, flashing with a hellish fire. Moreover, the moment their feet touched the ground, the earth opened under them and they sank back to their companions.
415. The following story should be added to these remarks.
One morning, woken up from sleep, meditating before I was fully awake in the clear morning light, I saw through the window a sort of lightning flash and soon heard a sort of rolling thunder. And as I was wondering where it came from I heard this from the sky:
"Not far from you some people are arguing passionately about God and nature. The flash of light like lightning and the crash in the air like thunder correspond to the fight and clash of arguments, from one side for God and from the other for nature, and the phenomena are from the correspondences."
The reason for this spiritual fight was this. There were some satans in hell who said among themselves, "If only we were allowed to talk with angels of heaven, we'd totally and fully demonstrate that nature is what they call 'the God that everything comes from' and that 'God' is only a word unless you take it to mean nature."
The satans believed this with all their heart and soul, and they were very anxious to talk with angels of heaven, so they were allowed to go up out of the mire and darkness of hell and talk with two angels who now came down from heaven. They were in the world of spirits, which is halfway between heaven and hell.
Seeing the angels there, the satans quickly ran up and shouted in a furious voice, "Are you the angels of heaven with whom we're allowed to get into an argument about God and nature?
You're called wise because you accept God, but oh, how simpleminded you are! Who sees God? Who understands what God is?
Who accepts that God rules, and can rule, the universe and each and every thing in it? Who but a common lowbrow accepts what he doesn't see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is the all - in - all? Who sees anything but nature with his eye? Who ever heard anything but nature with his ear? Who ever smelled anything but nature with his nose? Who ever tasted anything but nature with his tongue? Who feels anything but nature with the touch of his hand and body? Aren't our bodily senses the only witnesses of truth? Who can't swear from them that something is so? Aren't your heads in nature? Where does the influence on the thoughts in your heads come from except there?
Take nature away, and can you think anything?" And other chaff like that.
After listening to all this, the angels answered, "You talk this way because you are only sense - oriented. In hell they all have the ideas of their thinking immersed in the bodily senses and can't raise their minds above them, so we excuse you. A life of evil and a belief in false notions from it has closed the innermost parts of your minds to the point where there is no such thing for you as rising above sensory things, except in a position removed from evils of life and falsities of belief. For a satan as well as an angel can understand truth when he hears it, but he doesn't retain it, because evil erases truth and substitutes lies. But we notice that you are in a removed position now, so you can understand the truth that we speak. So pay attention to what we say."
They said, "You were in the natural world, and you left there, and now you are in the spiritual world. Did you know anything about life after death until now? Didn't you used to deny it and put yourselves on the same level as animals? Before, did you know anything about heaven and hell or anything about the light and warmth of this world? Or about the fact that you're no longer in nature, but above it? For this world and everything about it is spiritual, and spiritual things are so far above natural that not the tiniest bit of nature can seep into this world. But you thought nature was a god or goddess, so you think the light and warmth of this world is the light and warmth of the natural world, too, when they are not at all, for here the light of nature is darkness, and the heat of nature is cold here. Did you know anything about the sun of this world, where our light and our heat come from?
Did you know that this sun is pure love, and the natural world's sun is pure fire, and that the world's sun, which is pure fire, is what nature came out of and is supported by, and that the sun of heaven, which is pure love, is what life itself - which is love with wisdom - came from and is supported by, and so nature, which you make a god or goddess, is completely dead?
"If you have a guard, you can go up into heaven with us, and if we have a guard, we can go down into hell with you. In heaven you'll see magnificent and splendid things, but in hell squalid and unclean things. These differences exist because everyone in heaven worships God, and everyone in hell worships nature. And the magnificent and splendid things in heaven are objectified feelings having to do with good and truth. The squalid and unclean things in hell are objectified selfishness having to do with evil and untruth.
"Infer from these two facts, now, whether God or nature is the all - in - all."
To this the satans answered, "In the state of mind we're in now, we can tell from what we've heard that it's God, but when the pleasure of evil invades our minds, all we see is nature."
The two angels and the two satans stood not far from me, to my right, so I saw and heard them. And I saw around them many spirits who were celebrated as learned in the natural world! I was surprised that those learned people sometimes stood near the angels, sometimes near the satans, and that they favored the ones they were standing near. I was told, "Their changes of position are changes in their states of mind, sometimes favoring one side and sometimes the other, for they are chameleons. And we'll tell you a secret. We've looked down to the earth at the ones celebrated for their learning who, in their discernment, thought about God and nature, and we found six hundred in a thousand for nature and the rest for God. But they were not for God because of understanding, just from hearing the words spoken many times, 'Nature is from God.' Speaking frequently from memory and recollection, and not from thought and intellect at the same time, introduces a kind of faith."
After this the satans were given a guard, and they went up to heaven with the two angels and saw magnificent and splendid things. And then, with enlightenment from the light of heaven there, they admitted that God exists and that nature was created for the service of the life that is in God and from God, and that nature in itself is dead, so nothing acts by itself but is acted upon by life. After seeing and understanding these things they went down, and as they went down their love of evil came back and closed their intellect from above and opened it from underneath.
And then a sort of veil, flashing with hellfire, appeared over them.
And when their feet touched ground, the ground immediately opened under them, and they sank back to their own kind.
415. To the above I will add the following Memorable Relation: One morning when I awoke from sleep, and before being fully awake was meditating in the early and serene light, I saw through the window something like a flash of lightning, and presently I heard something like the rumbling of thunder. As I was wondering where this came from, I heard these words from heaven: "Not far from you are some men who are reasoning sharply about God and nature. The vibration of light as of lightning, and the rumbling of the air as of thunder are correspondences and thence appearances of the contest and collision of their arguments, on the one side in favor of God and on the other in favor of nature."
The cause of this spiritual combat was as follows: There were some satans in hell who said among themselves, "Would that it were allowed us to speak with angels of heaven; we would conclusively and fully demonstrate that what they call the God from whom are all things, is nature, and that unless nature is meant, God is merely a word." Because those satans believed this with their whole heart and soul, and also desired to speak With angels of heaven, it was given them to ascend out of the mire and darkness of hell and to speak with two angels then descending from heaven. They were in the world of spirits, which is intermediate between heaven and hell.
[2] Seeing the angels there, the satans rushed up to them and cried out in a furious voice: "Are you the angels of heaven whom it is allowed us to meet for the purpose of reasoning about God and nature? Because you acknowledge God, you are called wise, but oh! how simple you are! Who can see God? Who can understand what God is? Who can comprehend that God governs or can govern the universe and each and every single thing thereof? Who but the common herd and the vulgar acknowledges what he does not see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is the all in all? Who with his eyes has seen anything but nature? or with his ears has heard anything but nature? or with his nostrils has smelled anything but nature? or with his tongue has tasted anything but nature? or by the touch of his hand or body has felt anything but nature? Are not the senses of our body the sole witnesses of truth? and on their evidence, who cannot swear that such is the case? Are not your heads in nature? Whence but from her comes influx into the thoughts of your head? Take nature away, can you think anything?" besides much else of the same sort.
[3] Hearing this, the angels responded: "You speak in this way because you are merely sensual. All in the hells have the ideas of their thoughts immersed in the senses of the body and cannot elevate their minds above them. Therefore we excuse you. A life of evil, and thence a belief in what is false, has so closed the interiors of your minds that with you elevation above things sensual is impossible except in a state removed from evils of life and falsities of faith; for a satan, while hating truth, can understand it equally well as an angel, but he does not retain it because evil obliterates truth and brings in falsity. We perceive that you are now in a state thus removed and so can understand the truth which we speak. Give heed then to what we shall say."
They then continued: "You were in the natural world and died there, and you are now in the spiritual world. Until now, did you know anything about the life after death? Did you not formerly deny it and put yourselves on a level with beasts? Did you previously know anything about heaven and hell? or about the light and heat of this world? or the fact that you are no longer within nature but above her? For this world and all things thereof are spiritual, and spiritual things are so far above natural that not the least of nature can flow into this world. But you, believing nature to be a god or goddess, believe also that the light and heat of this world are the light and heat of the natural world, when yet this is by no means the case; for here natural light is thick darkness, and natural heat cold. Did you know anything about the sun of this world from which proceed our light and heat? Did you know that this sun is pure love, and the sun of the natural world pure fire? that the sun of the world, being pure fire, is that from which nature existed and subsists, and the sun of heaven, being pure love, that from which life itself, which is love together with wisdom, existed and subsists? thus that nature, which you make to be a god or goddess, is absolutely dead?
[4] If a guard is granted you, you can ascend with us into heaven, and if a guard is granted us, we can descend with you into hell. In heaven you will see things magnificent and splendid, but in hell, things squalid and unclean. Such are the differences between them, because all in the heavens worship God, and all in the hells worship nature; and the magnificent and splendid things in the heavens are correspondences of the affections of good and truth, while the squalid and unclean things in the hells are correspondences of the lusts of evil and falsity. And now, from all this, draw your own conclusion as to whether God be the All in all or nature."
To this the satans replied: "In the state in which we now are, we are able to draw the conclusion from what we have heard, that it is God; but when the delight of evil takes possession of our minds we see nothing but nature."
[5] The two angels and the two satans were standing at the right, not far from me, so that I both heard and saw them. And lo, around them I saw many spirits who in the natural world had been celebrated for learning; and I marveled that these learned men stood now beside the angels, now beside the satans, and that they favored those beside whom they stood. It was then told me that their changes of place were Changes of their mental state, which favored now one side, now the other; "for" [said my informants], "they are vertumni. And we will tell you a mystery. We ourselves looked down upon the earth at men celebrated for learning who have thought about God and nature from their own judgment, and out of a thousand we found six hundred in favor of nature and the rest in favor of God; but we found the latter to be in favor of God because they had frequently said that nature is from God, saying this, not from any understanding, but only from what they had heard; for speech from memory and recollection and not at the same time from thought and intelligence, often induces a sort of faith."
[6] After this, a guard was given the satans, and with the two angels they ascended into heaven and saw things magnificent and splendid. Moreover, being then in enlightenment from the heavenly light there, they acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature was created to serve the life which is in God and from God; also that nature in herself is dead and so does nothing of herself but is actuated by life. Having seen and perceived all this, they descended; and as the descended, the love of evil returned, closing their understanding above and opening it below. Then, above it, appeared as it were, a veil, flashing from infernal fire; and the moment their feet touched the earth, the ground opened beneath them and they sank down to their own.
415. I append the following Memorabilia:
One morning, 1rousing from sleep, and not yet entirely awake, I lay meditating in the serene morning light. From my window I noticed what seemed to be flashes of lightning and presently I heard as it were rolling thunder. As I was wondering whence this was, I heard from heaven the words: "Some men not far from you are reasoning sharply about God and nature. The vibrations of light like lightning and the rumbling of the air like thunder are correspondences and hence appearances of the conflict and clash of arguments in favor of God on one side and in favor of nature on the other."
The cause of this spiritual conflict was this. Certain satans in hell had said to one another, "Would that we might be permitted to speak with angels of heaven! We would show them once for all that nature is what they call God from whom all things are, and thus that God is only a word unless nature is meant."
As the satans believed this with their whole heart and soul and did long to speak with angels of heaven, it was granted them to ascend out of the mire and darkness of hell, and to speak with two angels then descending from heaven. All were in the world of spirits, which is intermediate between heaven and hell.
[2] Catching sight of the angels, the satans ran up to them at once, and in a voice of rage exclaimed, "Are you the angels of heaven with whom we are permitted to engage in reasoning about God and nature? You are called wise because you acknowledge God; but oh! how simple you are! Who sees God? Who understands what God is? Who grasps how God governs or can govern the universe and everything in it? Aside from the common people and the rabble, who acknowledges anything he does not see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is all in all? Who has seen anything but nature with the eye? Heard anything but nature with the ear? Perceived anything but nature with the nostrils? Tasted anything but nature with the tongue? Felt anything but nature with the hand or the body? Are not our bodily senses the only witnesses of truth?: Who cannot swear by them that a thing is so? Are not your heads in nature? Whence do the thoughts of the head inflow except from nature? Take nature away and can you think anything?" Besides much else of the sort.
[3] Hearing this the angels replied, "You speak in this way because you are merely sensuous. All in the hells have immersed the ideas of their thought in the bodily senses, and cannot elevate the mind above them. We therefore excuse you. A life of evil and the attendant belief in what is false have so closed the interiors of your minds that elevation above sensuous things is impossible to you, except in a state removed from evils of life and falsities of faith. For a satan can understand truth as well as an angel when he hears it, but does not retain it, because evil obliterates truth and introduces falsity. But we perceive that you are now in a state thus detached, and that it is possible for you to understand the truth which we speak. So give attention to what we say."
The angels continued, "You were in the natural world and died there, and are now in the spiritual world. Did you know anything before about a life after death? Did you not deny it, and put yourselves on a level with beasts? Did you know anything then about heaven and hell? Or about the light and heat of this world? Or about the fact that you would no longer be within nature, but above it? For this world and all things pertaining to it are spiritual; and spiritual things are above natural, so that not even the least of nature can flow into this world. But having believed nature to be a god or goddess, you believe that the light and heat of this world are the light and heat of the natural world; when in fact it is not so at all, for natural light is thick darkness here and natural heat is cold. Did you know anything about the sun of this world from which our light and heat proceed? Did you know that this sun is sheer love, and the sun of the natural world is mere fire? And that it is the sun of the world, which is mere fire, from which nature exists and subsists? And that it is the sun of heaven, which is sheer love, from which life itself, or love together with wisdom, exists and subsists? And thus that nature, which you make a god or goddess, is absolutely dead?
[4] You can ascend with us into heaven if a guard is granted you; and we, if a guard is granted us, can descend with you into hell. In heaven you will see things magnificent and splendid; but in hell things squalid and unclean. The differences come from the fact that in heaven all worship God, and in hell all worship nature. The magnificent and splendid things in the heavens are correspondences of the affections of good and truth; and the squalid andunclean things in the hells are correspondences of the lusts of the evil and false. Judge now from these contrasting things whether God or nature is all in all."
To this the satans replied, "In the state in which we now are, we are able to conclude from what we have heard that there is a God; but when the delight of evil takes possession of our minds we see nothing but nature."
[5] The two angels and the two satans were standing not far from me on the right, so that I could see and hear them.
Around them I saw also many spirits who in the natural world had been noted for learning. I was surprised that these learned men stood now beside the angels, now beside the satans, standing beside those whom they favored. I was told that their changes of place were changes of mind, favoring now one side, now the other; "For they are vertumni. We will tell you a mystery. We have looked down upon earth at those noted for learning who have thought about God and nature according to their own judgment, and have found six hundred out of a thousand in favor of nature, and the rest in favor of God; even these were in favor of God because they had frequently declared (not from any understanding, but only from having heard it) that nature is from God. Frequent speech from memory and recollection, even if it is not at the same time from thought and intelligence, induces a sort of faith."
[6] Thereupon the satans were given a guard and ascended with the two angels into heaven and saw magnificent and splendid things. Illumined by the light of heaven as they were, they acknowledged that there is a God; that nature is created to serve the life which is in God and from God; and that nature in itself is dead, and so does nothing of itself, but is actuated by life. Having seen and perceived these things, they descended; and as they did, the love of evil returned, closing their understanding above and opening it beneath. Over their understanding appeared what looked like a veil, with infernal fire flashing through it. The moment their feet touched the earth the ground opened under them, and they sank down to their own.
Footnotes:
1. This paragraph occurs again with slight changes in True Christian Religion 77.
415. To this I will add this Relation:
One morning when I awoke out of sleep, meditating in the early and serene light before I was fully awake, I saw through the window as it were a flash of lightning, and presently heard as it were rolling thunder. And as I was wondering whence it was I heard these words from heaven: 'There are some not far from you who are reasoning sharply about God and about nature. The vibration of light like lightning and the rumbling of the air like thunder are the correspondences and thence the appearances of the contest and collision of arguments on one side in favor of God and on the other in favor of nature.'
The cause of this spiritual contest was this. There were certain satans in hell who said among themselves, 'Would that we might be permitted to speak with the angels of heaven, and we would show conclusively and fully that nature is that which they call God, from whom all things are, and thus that God is only a word unless nature is meant.'
And as the satans with their whole heart and soul believed this, and also longed to speak with the angels of heaven, it was given them to ascend out of the mire and darkness of hell, and to speak with two angels then come down from heaven. They were in the world of spirits, which is intermediate between heaven and hell.
The satans seeing the angels there, quickly ran up to them, and in a furious voice exclaimed, 'Are you the angels of heaven with whom it is permitted us to engage in reasoning about God and about nature? You are called wise because you acknowledge God; but O how simple you are! Who sees God? Who understands what God is? Who comprehends that God governs, and can govern, the universe and all and each thing of it? Who, but the common people and the rabble, acknowledges what he does not see and understand? What is more obvious than that nature is all-in-all? Who sees anything but nature with the eye? Who hears anything but nature with the ear? Who perceives anything but nature by the smell? Who tastes anything but nature with the tongue? Who feels anything but nature by the touch of the hand and of the body? Are not the senses of our body the only witnesses of truth? Who cannot from then swear that a thing is so? Are not your heads in nature? Whence the influx into the thoughts of the head but from her? Take her away can you think anything?' Besides much other like matter.
Hearing this the angels responded, 'You speak in this way because you are merely sensual. All in the hells have the ideas of their thought immersed in the senses of the body, and cannot elevate the minds above them. We therefore, excuse you. A life of evil, and thence the belief in what is false, have so closed the interiors of your minds that elevation above things sensual is with you impossible, except in a state removed from the evils of life and the falsities of faith. For a satan equally with an angel can understand truth when he hears it, but he does not retain it, because evil obliterates the truth and brings in falsity. But we perceive that you are now in a state thus removed, and that thus it is possible for you to understand the truth which we speak. Give attention then to what we say.'
And they said, 'You were in the natural world, died there, and now you are in the spiritual world. Did you before now know anything about a life after death? Did you not before deny it, and make yourselves equal with beasts? Did you before now know anything about heaven and hell? Or anything about the light and heat of this world? Or about the fact that you are no longer within nature, but above it? For this world and all things pertaining to it are spiritual; and spiritual things are above natural, so that not even the least of nature can flow into this world. But you, because you have believed nature to be a god or a goddess believe also the light and heat of this world to be the light and heat of the natural world; when in fact it is not so at all, for here natural light is thick darkness and natural heat here is cold. Did you know anything about the sun of this world from which our light and heat proceed? Did you know that this sun is pure love, and the sun of the natural world is pure fire? And that the sun of the world, which is pure fire, is that from which nature exists and subsists? And that the sun of heaven, which is pure love, is that whence life itself, which is love with wisdom, exists and subsists? And thus that nature, which you make a god or goddess, is manifestly dead? You can, if a guard is granted you, ascend with us into heaven; and we, if a guard is granted us can descend with you into hell. And in heaven you will see things magnificent and splendid; but in hell things squalid and unclean. The differences arise from the fact that all in heaven worship God, and all in hell worship nature; and those magnificent and splendid things in the heavens are the correspondences of the affections of good and of truth; and the squalid and unclean things in the hells are correspondences of the lusts of the evil and false. Judge now from these things and those whether God or nature is all-in-all.'
To this the satans replied, 'In the state in which we now are we are able to conclude from what we have heard that it is God; but when the delight of evil takes possession of our minds we see nothing but nature.'
The two angels and the two satans were standing not far from me on the right, so that I saw and heard them.
And lo! I saw many spirits around them, who in the natural world had been celebrated for learning, and I was surprised that these learned men stood now beside the angels, now beside the satans, and that they favored those beside whom they stood. And I was told that their changes of place were changes of their state of mind, favoring now one side now the other; 'For they are Vertumni. 1And we will tell you a mystery. We have looked down upon earth, to those celebrated for learning who have thought according to their own judgment about God and about nature, and we find six hundred out of a thousand in favor of nature, and the rest in favor of God; but they were in favor of God because they had frequently said that nature is from God, not from any understanding, but only from what they had heard; and frequent speech from memory and recollection, though not at the same time from thought and intelligence, induces a sort of faith.'
After this a guard was given the satans and with the two angels they ascended into heaven, and saw magnificent and splendid things. And being then in illustration from the light of heaven there, they acknowledged that there is a God, and that nature is created to subserve the life which is in God and from God; and that nature in itself is dead, and so does nothing of itself, but is actuated by life. Having seen and perceived these things they descended; and as they descended the love of evil returned, and closed their understanding above and opened it beneath. And then there appeared as it were a veil above it, flashing from infernal fire; and the instant their feet touched the earth the ground opened beneath them, and they sank down to their own.
Footnotes:
1. Vertumnus was a god among the Romans who could assume various shapes; Vertumni is the plural of Vertumnus.
415. His adjicietur hoc Memorabile. Quodam mane, cum evigilatus e somno, in luce matutina et serena ante plenam vigiliam meditans, vidi trans fenestram sicut fulmen micans, et mox audivi sicut tonitru crepans; ac cum miratus sum unde hoc, audivi e Coelo haec, "sunt aliqui non procul a te, qui acriter ratiocinantur de Deo et de Natura; vibratio lucis sicut fulguris, et crepor aeris sicut tonitru, sunt correspondentiae et inde apparentiae pugnae et collisionis argumentorum, ab una parte pro Deo, et ab altera pro Natura;" causa hujus spiritualis pugnae fuit haec; erant aliqui Satanae in Inferno, qui dixerunt inter se, "utinam liceret nobis cum Angelis Coeli loqui, ac prorsus et plene demonstrabimus, quod Natura sit quam vocant Deum a quo sunt omnia, et sic quod Deus sit modo vox nisi intelligatur Natura:" et quia Satanae illi toto corde et tota anima id crediderunt, et quoque cupiverunt loqui cum Angelis Coeli, datum est illis ex luto ac e tenebris Inferni ascendere, et cum duobus Angelis tunc descendentibus e Coelo loqui; erant in Mundo Spirituum, qui inter Coelum et Infernum medius est.
[2] Satanae ibi visis Angelis velociter accurrerunt, et furiosa voce clamabant, 1"estis vos Angeli Coeli, cum quibus ratiocinando de Deo et de Natura licet congredi; vocamini sapientes quia agnoscitis Deum, sed oh quam simplices estis; quis videt Deum, quis intelligit quid Deus, quis capit quod Deus regat et regere possit universum ac omnia et singula ejus, quis nisi plebs et vulgus agnoscit quod non videt ac intelligit; quid exstantius est, quam quod Natura sit omne in omnibus; quis vidit aliud oculo quam naturam, quis audivit aliud aure quam naturam, quis odoravit aliud nare quam naturam, quis gustavit aliud lingua quam naturam, quis aliquo tactu manus et corporis sensit aliud quam naturam; suntne sensus corporis nostri soli testes veritatum; quis non potest ex illis jurare, quod ita sit; suntne capita vestra in natura; unde influxus in cogitationes capitum nisi ex illa; auferte illam; num potestis cogitare quicquam;" praeter plura similis farinae alia.
[3] His auditis Angeli respondebant, "vos ita loquimini quia estis mere sensuales; omnes in Infernis ideas cogitationum sensibus corporis habent immersas, nec possunt supra illos elevare mentes; quare nos ignoscimus vobis; vita mali et inde fides falsi occlusit interiora mentis vestrae, usque ut elevatio supra sensualia apud vos non dabilis sit, nisi in statu remoto a malis vitae et a falsis fidei; nam Satanas aeque ac Angelus potest intelligere verum cum id audit, sed non retinet, quia malum obliterat verum, ac inducit falsum: sed percipimus quod vos nunc sitis in statu remoto, et quod sic possitis intelligere verum quod loquimur; quare attendite ad haec quae dicemus;" et dixerunt, 2"fuistis in Mundo naturali, et obivistis ibi, et nunc estis in Mundo Spirituali; num prius quam nunc scivistis aliquid de vita post mortem; numne prius negavistis illam, et fecistis vos pares bestiis; num prius scivistis aliquid de Coelo et Inferno, num aliquid de luce et calore hujus Mundi; num de eo quod non amplius sitis intra naturam, sed supra illam; est enim hic Mundus et sunt omnia ejus spiritualia, ac spiritualia sunt supra naturalia, adeo ut ne quidem minimum naturae possit in hunc Mundum influere; sed vos quia naturam credidistis Deum vel Deam, creditis etiam lucem et calorem hujus Mundi esse lucem et calorem Mundi naturalis, cum tamen ne hilum sit; nam lux naturalis hic est caligo, et calor naturalis hic est frigus: num scivistis aliquid de Sole hujus Mundi, ex quo nostra Lux et noster Calor procedunt; num scivistis quod hic Sol sit purus Amor, et Sol mundi naturalis sit purus ignis, et quod Sol mundi, qui est purus ignis, sit ex quo Natura exstitit et subsistit, et quod Sol coeli, qui est purus amor, sit ex quo ipsa Vita, quae est amor cum sapientia, exstitit et subsistit; et sic quod Natura, quam facitis Deum vel Deam, sit plane mortua.
[4] Vos potestis, si custodia datur, cum nobis ascendere in coelum, et nos possumus, si custodia datur, cum vobis descendere in infernum, et videbitis in Coelo magnifica et splendida, at in Inferno squallida et immunda; discrimina illa sunt, quia omnes in Coelis colunt Deum, et omnes in Infernis colunt Naturam; ac magnifica et splendida illa in Coelis sunt correspondentiae affectionum boni et veri, ac squallida et immunda illa in Infernis sunt correspondentiae cupiditatum mali et falsi; ex his et illis concludite nunc, num Deus vel num Natura sit omne in omnibus:" ad haec Satanae responderunt, "in statu, in quo nunc sumus, possumus ex auditis concludere, quod Deus sit, sed cum jucundum mali occupat mentes nostras, non videmus nisi Naturam."
[5] Duo illi Angeli et duo Satanae non procul a me ad dextram stabant, quare illos vidi et audivi; et ecce vidi circum illos multos Spiritus, qui celebres eruditione in Mundo naturali fuerant, ac miratus sum, quod Eruditi illi nunc starent juxta Angelos, nunc juxta Satanas, et quod illis, juxta quos stabant, faverent; et dictum mihi est, quod mutationes situs illorum essent mutationes status illorum mentis faventis nunc parti uni nunc alteri, "sunt enim vertumni: et dicemus tibi mysterium; despeximus in terram ad celebres eruditione, qui ex suo judicio cogitaverunt de Deo et de Natura, et invenimus sexcentos ex mille pro Natura, et reliquos pro Deo; at hos pro Deo, quia non ex aliquo intellectu, sed modo ex auditis quod Natura sit ex Deo, frequenter loquuti sunt; ac frequens loquela ex memoria et reminiscentia, et non simul ex cogitatione et intelligentia, infert speciem fidei."
[6] Post haec data est Satanis custodia, et cum duobus Angelis ascenderunt in Coelum, ac viderunt magnifica et splendida, et tunc in illustratione a luce Coeli ibi agnoverunt, quod Deus sit, et quod Natura creata sit ad inserviendum vitae, quae in Deo et a Deo est; et quod Natura in se mortua sit, et quod sic a se nihil agat, sed a vita agatur: his visis et perceptis descendebant, et sicut descendebant, rediit amor mali, et occlusit intellectum illorum supra, et aperuit illum infra, et tunc supra illum apparuit sicut velamen fulgurans ex igne infernali: et actutum, cum pedibus tetigerunt terram, hiabat solum sub illis, et relapsi sunt ad suos.
Footnotes:
1. Prima editio: clamabant;
2. Prima editio: dixerunt;