5513. An evil spirit, once his outer nature is taken away, which had served him in the world for profit, position, reputation, lest he run the risk of losing his life at another's hands and lest he be punished by the laws, then acts from his inner nature. He rushes about as if insane, following all his lusts and desires without inhibition and without shame and is unable to contain himself. I have seen many like this who were regarded in the world as respectable and who were praised for many things. They would also have done the same in the world if these outer restraints were taken away, as is evident from people who engage in civil war when there cease to be outer restraints. From this it is evident what conscience is: for those who have a conscience, which is a matter of the inner self, then have more understanding and wisdom than in the world, because these operate from the inward self.
[5513a.] About a Planet in the universe
In a wakeful state. I was led to another planet in the universe for a second time. This happened through constant changes of state that went on for about twelve hours. I was in company with spirits and angels. They were led straight southward, now upward - not vertically - now downward to a mountainside, also over mountains and over quagmires. Along the way on the mountains here and there I also heard spirits speaking among themselves. I noticed then how immense the Lord's heaven is, because from the expanse that I passed through, by making a comparison with the expanse of spirits and angels from our earth, which is a dimension with which I am familiar, I could conclude that if there were several hundred thousands of planets, and from every one as many human beings as from our earth, there would still be places for them to eternity, and it would never be filled.
[2a] When I came into view, they then spoke to me from afar off, asking who I was and what I wanted. I said I had wanted to travel, and had been taken here, and that I would bring harm to no one. Then I was asked what God we worshiped. I said the Lord. They replied that they themselves did too, and that they were afraid that perhaps I came from those newcomers who were disturbing them, whom they flee, who say that they want them to believe that God is a trine, whom they call Father, Son, and holy Spirit, and that this trine makes a one. They said that they reply that they know that God is one, that He is Lord, and also a person. They do not care for their Trinity, since they get a mental picture of three Gods from it by which their mental picture is entirely confused, and the enlightenment they have from the Lord perishes. I said to them that we too who are here acknowledge one God, and that He is Lord. And I told them where they [of our earth] got the mental picture of a trinity from, namely, that these three are named in the Word, where the revelation for them is, and therefore they distinguish them into three persons, and thus also the Divine Itself. From this they have a mental picture of three, and so can scarcely think otherwise. But still they know that God is one even though there are these three names. They are only the names of the one God and not of persons.
[2b] I spoke further about the mental picture we have of the Lord, speaking comparatively, of the case of an angel. An angel has an innermost, which in man is called the soul, which thinks and wills; and he has an outward aspect that is called the body, which sees, speaks and acts; and also an aura of love around him, that is to say, of feeling, thus of life. These three make one angel. From this comparison can be grasped what sort of mental image one should have of the Lord: namely, that the Father is in him, as He Himself says [John 14:10]; His Divine Human is the Son; and the Holiness going forth, filling the heavens and making them, is the Holy Spirit. Thus this trine is a one. After hearing this idea they said that from it they comprehend where the newcomers got such an idea of three; and in addition those who were enlightened said that they know it is so. But they grieved that these newcomers made a distinction between the Human and the Divine in the Lord, when nevertheless they know that the Lord as man is God, and that as regards the Lord, God and man are one.
[3] They said further that the newcomers confused them by their saying that they should have faith, that is to say, believe, and that they do not know what "faith," or rather what "to believe," is, since they sense inwardly that it is so or so. To this the reply was made that for those who are enlightened there is no need to say that they should believe or have faith, since it would be the same as when people see gardens, trees, fields and the like with their own eyes, and would be told that they must believe that there are gardens, that there are trees, that there are fields, since they see them. And the case is similar with faith about the things that they say, which for the most part are such as they do not understand. I said further that the reason they say "faith" is because man has two faculties, understanding and will, and that they know many things from the Word and so they understand; but they do not live accordingly, and because a Divine thing from the Word does not go further than into the understanding and not into the will, therefore they say "believe" and "faith," when they would have said otherwise if they had also done this from their will. The ability to understand has been given to them so that they can be regenerated. But no others have an enlightened understanding than those who live according to these things and as a result desire Divine Truths in themselves. They comprehended this, and I perceived how much they were enlightened, that their interiors were open and in light, and that they were from the heavenly kingdom, who neither accept Ԩave faith," nor listen to "believe," but say Yea, yea, or Nay, nay.
[4] I was granted to know that they had enlightenment and perceived in themselves what is good and true from the fact that when they were told many things about charity, about love, about regeneration, and about the Lord, they immediately knew that it was true.
[5] After this I came to other spirits from the same earth who were yet further away, from the western side of that planet. They told me there was nothing in me except evil. I replied that I know this, and it is the same with them and with everyone, and that everything good that anyone has is from the Lord. From this they realized that I had the truth. Therefore they spoke with me about these things, and they showed the mental picture they have about the good that is from the Lord, and about the evil that is in man, and that the Divine is always leading to what is good, although evil follows with it. But still the one is distinct from the other, so that the Divine controls, both leading and restraining, lest evil be at liberty, and act.
[6] Then they asked me how the Lord appears in the case of the angels from our earth. I said that He appears in the Sun, and that He Himself is the Sun from which all Light [comes] to angels and spirits, or better said, from which all light [comes] to all things in the other life. They said that they know that this is true, but yet that the Lord appears otherwise to them when he descends and appears present.
[7] Then how the Lord appears to them was shown to me in a living manner. A faint cloud appeared ahead at an indeterminate height, descending. And in descending the cloud appeared more and more to have a human shape; and when it came to the spirits, it then appeared in a fiery beam of light around which were little stars of the same color. And while it was there, spirits of that region from all places gathered around it; and then it separated them, those who were good on the right of it, and those who were not good on the left, and in this way put them in an order according to their quality of uprightness and goodness, and afterwards sent them back arranged in order. They said that this happens as often as they begin to become evil and the upright spirits are seduced by evils. After this I saw Him descending quite deeply, and He then appeared gleaming. But along the way the gleam changed in various ways and finally went faint, and it was said that this is entirely according to the nature of those through whom it passes, their uprightness and goodness. Accordingly, with those who have truths it appears gleaming; with those who have false [conceptions] from evil it is faint; with those who have good [intentions] it is fiery. The spirits there saw this too, and said that this happens several times, and that it happens in this way. And it was said to them that all those things that had fallen out of order were restored to order in this way, and that as often as they are carried into evils and thrown out of order, they are restored to order in this way.
[8] The one who appeared sent to them in this way was an angelic society from the Lord in the midst of whose members the Divine of the Lord then was, for His presence in the heavens is the Divine that is with angelic societies.
[9] Then, also, all who are evil are separated from the good by the Lord and are thrown into hell, and in this way societies are purified. For them this was their first visitation, which they had been waiting for.
[10] Afterwards I asked them about their planet, what it was like, especially about their sun [as seen] from [their] earth. They said that it was the size of a man's head and that it had a fiery color. Then they said that their day equals about nine hours of our time, which they were able to say from a comparison with our days in my thought. I asked them about their years. They said that they have 200 days, which makes almost 76 days of our time. From this it was possible to conclude that they do not have winter, but almost autumn, because when the days are so short, and the year so short, it cannot grow cold, but there is a perpetual summer. They also said that for them it is always summer and that their fields and trees are constantly in bloom.
[11] They also said that they eat fruits and vegetables, and not the meat of animals, that they drink milk mixed with water, and that they have wool-producing [cows] like sheep but larger than cows or bull calves.
[12] Further, they said that they live among themselves house by house, and never together, but yet they do socialize with those within same family; and also that they have only one married partner, and never many, because this is against the Divine order with them.
[13] Further, they said that they gather every thirtieth day and hear preaching by those who are enlightened by the Lord, and that this happens under the open sky, and that the preacher is in a somewhat elevated pulpit and teaches. Regarding revelation they said that there are revelations with those who teach and preach, and sometimes also with others, and that revelation takes place in the following way: in the morning in the time between waking and sleeping they hear as it were angels from heaven speaking about Divine truths and about a life according to them, and when they awake, an angel in snowy white quietly appears beside the bed and then disappears. From this is evident to them that the things they have heard are Divine. This happens so that Divine visions can be distinguished from visions not Divine, for in these no such angel appears.
[14] They said that they walk there entirely naked since they are in and around their homes and because nakedness is not shameful to them. There is no lasciviousness there. But the young women do not go out but remain at home until they come to marriageable age. They are then taken to particular places and placed behind several benches, by which the lower parts are covered and the breasts are visible; and then the young men who are going to marry come there and see them, and choose one for themselves for a wife. They see immediately from their faces whether they have the same inclinations and ways of doing things, since their inward natures are not hidden but are visible from their faces. This happens in different places. The young men who are going to take a wife come there and if they do not find one, come back, and when they have made their choice, she follows him and they live in a place prepared for them. There is always an old man overseeing the bench, at the back, who sees to it that things are done fittingly and an old woman is at one side who also takes care that things are done fittingly.
[15] The men have on their heads a round-brimmed black hat. Their homes are low, simply of white wood planks with a flat roof, sloping at the sides. On one side of the house are the wife and husband together with the men and women servants; the house then stretches lengthwise, where there are woolly cows.
[16] I saw the men there. Their faces were larger than the faces of the men of our planet. Their flesh was the color of ours, but their eyes were very keen sighted, gleaming from an inner light, for they have an inner light, because they are in such a state.
[17] Further, as regards their spirits, they complain strongly about arrivals who come to them from other planets, saying that they upset them greatly in regard to things that belong to their worship and that they avoid these newcomers. They say that they talk to them about things they cannot understand, telling them things they say must be believed, and that those who tell them do not themselves understand them, and that they aim at nothing else than ruling over them. Many of those appeared, but they were separated from the spirits of that planet. The spirits of the planet were on the western side; those, however, were on the eastern. Among the others who come there are monks, and it was perceived that they were from those who in the world had traveled around and converted gentiles. They travel in this way in the other life too.
They spoke about one of these, saying that he says nothing else when he first comes than that they must have faith [in what they are told] about the Lord: that He was born and that He was crucified, and that He suffered for us; and that they ought to venerate His missionaries when they hear this. They say that they know the Lord is man, and that they can learn nothing from these monks since the Lord Himself teaches them, and that they do not know what [the monks] have in mind.
[18] I said that the inhabitants of our planet live together in cities. When they heard this, they all fled as if terrified, but I still spoke with them from a distance about these things. They said that these arrivals had the same desire, and that therefore they fled, knowing that if they were living all together many evils would then invade them, such as the lust to rule, and also to possess the goods of others, and envying others, and thus of enmity, which they know nothing of when they live by themselves house by house. It was gathered, then, that these newcomers had urged them on to such things, in various ways, from nothing else than a lust of ruling, and that on this account they had fled when they heard about cities.
[19] Then I saw that these newcomers were visited and that up to several thousand of them were collected into a single group and were cast out of there, and thus they were freed from such individuals, and together with these from a monk, who appeared naked, but only to half of his body — girt in a surplice, and wearing shoes on his feet.
[20] When I departed from them, one of their spirits followed me out to see what kind of objects were on our earth. He saw many utensils made of porcelain — India 1clayware. He saw [objects] of iron, of silver, and various woods, and many things that were in the house. He said that he had never seen such things, and when I wanted to show him the city, which could be seen when I went up in the house, he immediately fled, not wanting to see it for the reason spoken of above, since when I had the mental picture of a city, I had also in my mental picture government by a king and by princes, and much else.
[21] The newcomers call the spirits of that planet simple since these newcomers find all understanding and intelligence in the doing of evil. But I said that the spirits of that earth appear simple in such things, but yet they are a thousand times wiser. With the latter there is heaven, but with the former there is hell, where wickedness is regarded as wisdom and wisdom as simplemindedness and virtually worthless.
[22] I then spoke with a monk who had been with them. What he was like was investigated, and what he had done there. He said that he taught them about the Lord. What else? About heaven and about hell. What else? About faith in all the things that he was going to tell them. What else? About the pope, that he has the power of opening heaven to whomever he pleases. This is what they heard. And he was examined as to whether he believed in the Lord. It was found that he did not believe in any God; and as regards heaven and hell, that he knew nothing whatever other than that heaven is above and hell below. [What else?] About faith, that they would believe whatever he wanted. When they heard about the pope, they said that he is stupider than any human being, that he should be sent away to be with those who are stupid because it was entirely impossible to think of such things coming into the mind of anyone. He was asked what else. He said that he should rule over them; at which they said, "what is this, what is to rule?" Consequently, he wanted to take away all heavenly light from them and bring on the darkness of hell, since he knew nothing except what had to do with hell, not even what the Lord is, of whom he had an entirely human mental picture like that of himself. From all it was evident that his stay there was motivated by the pleasure of ruling. They asked me of what avail it was to rule. I said that everyone would be his servants; consequently the hells would exercise control through him, because for them governing powers are the love they embrace. This dumbfounded the spirits. Besides this he was extremely crafty in misleading [others] and took pleasure in this skill, although he knew nothing of Divine truths.
[23] [They said] that they live by themselves, house by house, family by family, nation by nation. The head of the household is the supreme one among them. They venerate him, but he does not rule over them from self-love, but from love of them, or rather, toward them. So he wishes well to them, more than to himself, as a parent to sons. They consult him; he cares for them in regard to whatever it may be. So there is a rule of love among them. The rule of love for their sake differs greatly from the rule of self-love. [And they said] that this love is from heaven where the Divine Love is like this; and self-love is from hell, because there self-love reigns. But today no such regime or governmental body can be established since everyone has a love of ruling over others for the sake of honor and reputation hereditarily planted in them, together with a love for possessing worldly wealth beyond what is necessary, and each one would want, if it were possible, to possess everything in the whole universe.
Footnotes:
1. Presumably a reference to the East India Company, which was then importing porcelain from the Far East.
5513. An evil [spirit], when once his external is taken away, which served him in the world for purposes of gain, credit and reputation, lest he should run into a difference of life from others, and lest he should be punished according to the laws, - then acts from the internal, and carries on like a madman, according to all his lusts and cupidities, without restraint and without shame; nor is he able to check himself. I saw many such, who, in the world, were held as honest, and were praised by the multitude. They would also do this in the world if those external bonds were taken away, as is manifest from men who take part in civil war, when external restraints cease. It is hence plain what conscience is; for they who have conscience, which belongs to the internal, are then [i.e. in the other life] in intelligence and wisdom more than in the world; for these things, also, belong to the internal.
[5513a.] ABOUT AN EARTH IN THE UNIVERSE.
(In wakefulness. - I was led a journey to some earth in the universe - a thing effected through continual changes of state - which lasted for about twelve hours. I was in company with spirits and angels. I was led in a straight line towards the south, and now indirectly upwards, now downwards, to the side of a mountain, and over mountains; also over gulfs. I also heard, here and there in the way, spirits upon the mountains, speaking to one another. I then reflected how immense was the Lord's heaven; for I was able, from the extent which I traversed, to compute, by making a comparison with the extension of the spirits and angels from our earth - which dimension was known to me - that, if several hundred myriads of earths existed, and from everyone came as many men as from our earth, there would still be room for them to eternity; nor would it ever be filled.)
[2] (When I came into view, they accosted me from afar, asking who I was and what I wanted. I told them that I was there for the sake of travelling; and that I was conducted thither, and brought no one any hurt. One then asked what God I worshipped. I said that I worshipped the Lord. They replied that they also worshipped the Lord, and that they had feared whether I was from those strangers (who disturb them, and from whom they flee away) who say, and wish them to believe that God is a trine, whom they name Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and then make this trine one. They said, also, that they answered them that they know that God is one, and that He is the Lord and also man; and that they care nothing for that trine; since, from it, they get an idea of three Gods owing to which idea they are altogether confused, and likewise there perishes with them the illustration they enjoy from the Lord. I told them that we, too, who are on this earth, acknowledge one God, and also that He is the Lord; and I related to them whence they [of this earth] have the idea of a trine: that, namely, in the Word, where their revelation is, those three are named; and that they, therefore, distinguish them, and thus the Divine Itself, into three persons, and have the idea of three thence; also, that they are thus equally able to think otherwise, but that they still know that God is one, since, nevertheless, those three names are only names of the one God, and are not persons. I told them, moreover, what idea I had of the Lord, by making a comparison with an angel, [thus]: an angel has his internal, which in man is called the soul, which thinks and wills; and he has an external, called the body, which sees, speaks and acts; and he also has a sphere of love, or affection, thus of life, around himself: these three make one angel. From this comparison, may be comprehended what sort of an idea ought to be entertained of the Lord, that, namely, the Father is in Him, as Himself says; His Divine-Human is the Son; and the Holy Proceeding, which fills the heavens and constitutes them, is the Holy Spirit. Thus, this trine is one. When they heard this idea, they said that they comprehend, from that, whence the visitors got the idea of three; and, further, those who were in illustration said that they know that this is so; but they grieved that those strangers separate between the Human and the Divine in the lord, when, nevertheless, they know that the Lord, as man, is God; and that, as regards the Lord, God and man are one.)
[3] (They said, moreover, that those strangers confuse them by saying that they ought to have faith and believe, and that they are ignorant what faith is and what believing is, since they perceive in themselves that a thing is so, or so. To this, it was replied, that it is not necessary to tell those who are in illustration that they should believe, or have faith, since this would be like as if a man, who, with his own eyes, sees gardens, trees, fields and the like, should be told that he must believe that the gardens, the trees, and the fields exist - since he sees them; and that the case is similarly circumstanced with the faith of the things which they say, most of which are such as they do not understand. I said, further, that the reason that they say "faith," is, because man's two faculties are understanding and will; and that most of them know things from the Word, and thus understand, but do not do; and that, therefore, because the sowing of the Divine virtue from the Word goes no further than into the understanding, and not into the will, they say "believing," and "faith," when they would have said differently, if, from willing, they also did. They were given to understand that [those referred to] are able to be regenerated, but no others have the understanding illustrated save those who live according to those things [the Word teaches], and thus desire Divine truths in themselves. They comprehended this; and I perceived how greatly they were in illustration, also that their interiors were opened and in light and that they were in the celestial kingdom, - the subjects of which neither tolerate "faith," nor are willing to "believe," but say "yea, yea," or "nay, nay.")
[4] (That they were in illustration, and perceived in themselves what was true and good, I was enabled to know from the fact that many things were told them about charity, about love, and about regeneration, and they immediately knew them to be as stated.)
[5] (After this, I came to other spirits of the same earth, who were still farther on, at the western side of that earth. These told me that, with me, there was nothing but what was evil. I replied, that I knew it, and that the case was the same with them and with everyone; and that all the good which is with anyone is from the Lord. They thence perceived that I was in the truth; therefore, they spoke with me about that matter, and showed their idea of good, [namely] that it is from the Lord, and of evil, that it is in man; also, that the Divine always leads to good, although evil follows with it; but, still, one is distinct from the other; so that the Divine governs, and leads, and restrains, lest evil should be in freedom and prevail.)
[6] They afterwards asked me how the Lord appears to the angels of our earth. I said that He appears in the sun, and that (He is the sun of heaven, from which proceeds all the Light there is with the angels and spirits, or all the light there is with all in the other life. They said that they know this is the case; but that, still, the Lord appears to them in a different way, when He descends and appears present.)
[7] (Then was shown me, to the life, how the Lord appears with them. A dark cloud appeared at the front, at a certain altitude, descending; and, in descending, the cloud appeared more and more in the human form, and when it came to the spirits it then appeared in a flaming brilliancy, around which were little stars of the same color; and, when it was there, the spirits of that region assembled together from all places, and then it divided them - those who were good at the right hand, and those who were not good at the left, and thus arranged them in order according to the quality of their uprightness and goodness, and afterwards, thus arranged in order, sent them back. They said that this takes place as often as they begin to become evil and the upright to be led away by the evil. I afterwards saw Him descending pretty deeply; and then it [i.e. the cloud] appeared bright, but on the way the brightness was differently varied, and, at length, changed to obscurity; and it was said that this is altogether according to the uprightness and goodness of those whom it passes through - with those who are in truths it appears bright, with those who are in falses from evil, dark; with those who are in good, flaming. The spirits, there, also saw this; and they said that it often happens, and that it happens in that way. It was told them, also, that all things are thus reduced to order which were become disarranged; and that, as often as they are brought into evils and thrown into disorder, so often [the cloud] reduces them thus to order.)
[8] (That which appeared sent to them was an angelic society from the Lord, in the midst of whom, at the time, the Divine of the Lord was; for His presence in the heavens is the Divine with angelic societies. 1)
[9] (Then, too, all the evil are separated by the Lord from the good and cast into hell and thus those there are purged. This was the first visitation upon them - which they have been expecting.)
[10] Afterwards, I inquired of them about their earth, what kind it was, and especially about their sun on that earth. They said that it was of the largeness of a man's head and of a flaming color; also, that their day equals only nine hours of our time; which they could tell by virtue of the ratio of our days, which was with me. I inquired about their years: they said that each has 200 [of their] days, which was nearly 76 days of our time. Hence I was enabled to conclude that they do not have winter but an almost autumnal season instead; for, since the days are so short, and the years so short, the cold cannot become severe, but there must be perpetual summer. They also said that it was always summer with them; and that their fields and their trees are continually in bloom.
[11] They said, also, that they live on fruits and vegetables, and not the flesh of animals, and that they drink milk mixed with water, and that they have fleece-bearing [cows], like sheep but of the size of cows and young bullocks.
[12] (Further, that they live among themselves house-by-house, and never together, but that still there is social interaction with them between the families; and that also they have only one married partner, and not more, because this, with them, is against Divine order.)
[13] (Moreover, that they are called together every thirtieth day and listen to preachings by those who are illustrated by the Lord; and that this takes place under the open sky; also, that [the minister] preaches in a somewhat high pulpit, and teaches. Concerning revelation, they said that there are revelations with those who teach and preach, and sometimes also with others; and that revelation takes place in the following way: in the morning time, in the interval between sleep and waking, they hear, as it were, angels out of heaven, on Divine Truths and on a life according to them; and when they wake up an angel in white suddenly appears beside the bed and vanishes. It is thus evident to them that those things which they have heard are Divine. This happens in order that they may know the difference between Divine visions and visions not Divine; for, in the latter, no such angel appears.)
[14] (They said that they walk about, there, entirely naked, inasmuch as [they are] in their own homes and around them, and because nakedness, with them, has nothing to do with shame: there is nothing lascivious in it. Maidens, however, do not go out, but stay at home till they arrive at a marriageable age. They are then taken to stated places, and posted behind a certain bench, by which the lower parts are screened and the breast-parts left exposed; and then the young men who were about to marry come to the place and see them, and choose themselves one for a wife. They see, instantly, from their faces, whether they are like themselves in minds and habits, inasmuch as their interiors are not hidden, but are manifest from their countenances. This occurs in different places. The young men who are about to take a wife come thither, and, if they do not meet with one, they go back. Also, when they have chosen, she follows him; and they dwell in a place prepared for them. There is always an old man, above, at the back, who sees to it that things pass off becomingly; and at one side is an old woman, who also takes precautions that all things go on decorously.)
[15] (The men wear on the head a felt hat, round in the brim, and black. Their houses are low, made only of white-colored woods, over which is a roof, flat on the higher part, with a sloping cornice at the sides. At one part of that house are the wife and husband, with the maids and men-servants. The house is also continued into the distance, where the fleece-bearing cows are.)
[16] (I saw the men there. Their faces were longer than the faces of the men of our earth. They were flesh-colored, as with us, but the eyes were exceedingly piercing and glittering from internal light; for they have internal light, because they are in such a state.)
[17] (As regards their spirits, moreover, they bitterly complain, of the strangers who come to them from other earths, that they greatly disturb them as respects those things which belong to their worship, and said that they flee from them; also that the strangers speak of such things as they are not able to understand, but which they say ought to be believed; and that they themselves who say this do not understand those things; and that they aim at nothing else than that they may rule over them. Many of those [strangers] appeared, but were separated from the spirits of that earth: the spirits of [that] earth were on the western side, but the former ones on the eastern side. Amongst others who come thither are monks; and it was perceived that they were of those who, in the world, have traveled all round about and converted the heathen. They also travel about in the other life, in similar fashion. They said of one of these, that, when he first came, he did not say anything else than that the faith ought to be held about the Lord, that He was born, and that He was crucified and suffered for us; and that they ought to venerate His missionaries. When they hear this, they say that they know the Lord to be Man, and that they cannot learn anything from them [i.e. the monks,] since the Lord Himself teaches them; also, that they do not know what they are aiming at.)
[18] (I said that the inhabitants of our earth dwell together in towns. When they heard this, they all fled as from fear; but, still, I spoke with them at a distance about that matter. They said that those strangers wish them to do the same, and that therefore they fled; knowing, that if they should live together, then many evils would assail them, as the lust of ruling, and also of possessing the goods of others, and of envying others, and thus enmities - of which evils they know nothing when they live alone, house-by-house. They also comprehend that those strangers endeavored to persuade them to such practices in various ways, solely from the lust of governing; and therefore it was that they fled away as soon as they heard of towns.)
[19] (I then saw that a visitation was made upon those strangers, and that they were assembled in one place, up to several thousands, and cast out thence; and thus [the residents] were freed from such ones. With those also who were cast out, was the monk, who appeared naked, but only to the waist, being girt with a mantle, and, as to the feet, encased in shoes.)
[20] (When I went away from these, a spirit from them followed me, in order that he might see the sort of objects that were on our earth. He saw many utensils made of porcelain, or of Indian clay. He saw things made of iron, of silver, and of various kinds of wood, and many articles of household furniture. He said that he had never seen such things; and, when I wished to show him a town, which lay open to the gaze when I ascended in the house, he instantly fled away, being unwilling to see it for the reason mentioned above: since, when I had the idea of a town, I had also government by kings and by primates, and many like matters, in the idea.)
[21] (The strangers call the spirits of that earth simple, because the former place all understanding and intelligence in evil-doing; but I said that the spirits of that earth appear simple in such things, but yet they are a thousand times wiser [than the strangers]. With them is heaven; but with the strangers hell - where wickedness is wisdom, and wisdom, simplicity and almost nothing.)
[22] (I next spoke with the monk who had been with those [strangers]. Inquiry was made as to what sort of a man he was, and what he did there? He said, That he taught them about the Lord. - What else? About heaven and hell. - What else? About faith in all the things he was going to tell them. - What else? About the Pope, that he has the power of opening heaven to whomsoever he pleases. They heard this, and investigated as to whether he believed in the Lord. It was found [that he believed] in no God; and, as to what heaven and hell are, he knows nothing more than that heaven is above and hell beneath; and about faith, that people ought to believe whatever he wished. When they heard about the Pope, they said that there is folly with every man, and that he [the monk] ought to be ranked amongst fools; for they could not imagine that such things could come into the mind of anyone. He was asked, What more? He said, That he should rule over them. To this they said: "What is this? What is it to rule?" - also, that thus he wished to take from them all heavenly light, and bring them into the darkness of hell; since he knew nothing except such things as were from hell, not even what the Lord is, of whom he had the idea of a humanity altogether like that belonging to himself. It was thence manifested that he tarried there, animated by the lust of ruling. They asked me why he wanted to rule. I said, In order that all might be his slaves; that, thus, he might thereby rule the hells; for dominion is their love which they hug. At these things they were amazed. Moreover, he was exceedingly cunning in leading others astray, and gloried in that skill, although he knew nothing of Divine truths.)
[23] ([It has been mentioned] that they dwell alone, house-by-house, family-by-family, and tribe-by-tribe, and that the patriarch is supreme amongst them, and they revere him. He does not, however, rule over them from the love of self, but from the love of them, or towards them; therefore, he wishes well to them more than to himself, like a parent to his children. They consult him and he advises them about every matter whatever. Thus, the rule of love is amongst them - the rule of love for the sake of others, as different as possible from the rule of the love of self. That love, also, is from heaven, where the Divine love is of such a nature; and self-love is from hell, because there the love of self reigns. But, at this day, no such rule, or no such republic, can be established, inasmuch as there resides in everyone, from heredity, the love of reigning over others for the sake of his own honor and repute, and the love of possessing the wealth of the world beyond necessaries; and, if it could, it would also wish to possess all things in the universal earth.)
Footnotes:
1. Compare Heaven and Hell, 69. -ED.
5513. Malus cum ei modo aufertur externum, quod in mundo inservivit ei, ob lucrum, honorem, famam, ne incurreret in discrimen vitae ab alio, et ne puniretur secundum leges, tunc ex interno aget, et ruit sicut vesanus secundum omnes suas libidines et cupiditates, absque fraeno et absque pudore, nec se continere potest, vidi talium plures, qui in mundo pro honestis habiti sunt, et qui laudati ob plura; hoc quoque facerent in mundo si externa illa vincula auferrentur, ut patet ex hominibus qui se miscent civili bello, quando fraena externa cessant. Inde patet, quid conscientia, nam qui conscientiam habent, quae est interni, illi tunc in intelligentia et sapientia sunt, plus quam in mundo, nam hae sunt in interno. [5513a.] De Tellure in universo
In vigilia: Ductus sum iterum ad aliam tellurem in universo, quod fiebat per continuas status mutationes, quae perstabant circiter duodecim horis; in comitatu cum spiritibus et angelis; ducebantur versus meridiem linea recta, et nunc sursum, non directe, nunc deorsum, ad latus montis, vel super montes, etiam super voragines; etiam in via audiebam super montibus hic illic spiritus inter se loquentes; observabam tunc quam immensum esset coelum Domini, nam potui ab extensione quam pertransivi concludere, comparatione facta cum extensione spirituum et angelorum ex nostra tellure, quae dimensio mihi nota est, quod si aliquae centum myriades tellurum darentur, [et] ex qualibet tot homines, quot ex nostra tellure, quod usque locus foret illis in aeternum, nec usquam impleretur.
[2] (2a) Cum veni in conspectum, tunc e longinquo alloquebantur me, quaerendo quinam essem, et quid vellem, dicebam quod peregrinationis causa, et quod huc delatus, et quod nulli damnum inferam, tunc quaerebar quem Deum coleremus, dicebam quod Dominum, respondebant quod ipsi quoque Dominum; et quod timerent ne forte essem ab illis advenis, qui perturbant illos, quos fugiunt, qui dicunt et volunt ut crederent, quod Deus sit trinus, quem nominant Patrem, Filium, et Spiritum sanctum, et trinum id faciat unum, dicentes quod respondeant illis, quod sciant quod Deus unus sit, quod ille sit Dominus, et quoque homo, et quod illorum trinum non curent, quoniam inde ideam trium deorum capiunt, ex qua idea prorsus confunduntur, et quoque perit illis illustratio quae illis est a Domino; dicebam illis quod nos quoque qui hic sumus unum Deum agnoscamus, et quod Ille sit Dominus; et narrabam illis unde illis idea de trino, quod nempe in Verbo, ubi revelatio illis, nominentur illi tres, et quod ideo distinguant illos in tres personas, et sic ipsum Divinum, et inde ideam trium habeant, et quod sic aegre aliter cogitare possint, sed usque quod sciant quod Deus unus sit, cum tamen tria illa nomina, sint modo nomina unius Dei et non personae; (2b) dixi porro quam idea habemus de Domino, comparative dicendo, cum angelo, angelus habet intimum suum, quod in homine vocatur anima, quae cogitat et vult, et habet externum quod vocatur corpus, quod videt, loquitur et agit, et quoque habet sphaeram amoris seu affectionis, ita vitae circum se, haec tria faciunt unum angelum; ex hac comparatione comprehendi potest, qualis idea de Domino habenda sit, quod nempe in Ipso sit Pater, ut Ipse dicit [Joh. XIV: 10], Divinum Humanum Ipsius sit Filius, et Sanctum procedens implens coelos et faciens illos, sit Spiritus Sanctus, sic trinum id est unum; audita illa idea, dicebant quod ex illa comprehendant unde advenis talis idea trium, et porro illi qui in illustratione erant, dicebant quod sciant quod ita sit; sed dolebant quod advenae illi distinguant inter Humanum et Divinum in Domino, cum tamen illi sciant quod Dominus ut homo sit Deus, et quod Deus et homo quoad Dominum sit unum. [3] Porro dicebant, quod advenae illi etiam confundant eos per id quod dicant quod fidem habere debeant, seu credere quod non sciant quid fides, seu quid credere, cum in se percipiant id ita vel ita esse, hoc respondebatur, quod illis qui in illustratione sunt non opus sit dicere ut credant vel fidem habeant, quoniam id foret simile ac cum quis oculis suis videt hortos, arbores, campos similia, quod diceretur illis quod crederent quod horti sint, quod arbores, quod campi, quoniam vident illa quod similiter se habeat cum fide de rebus quas dicunt, quae pleraeque tales sint quas non intelligunt; dixi porro, quod causa quod fidem dicant, est quia binae facultates homini sint intellectus voluntas quod plerique ex Verbo sciant sic intelligant, sed non faciant ideo quia solum rei Divinae ex Verbo non ulterius vadit quam in intellectum non in voluntatem, quod ideo dicant credere fides, cum aliter dixissent si etiam ex velle facerent id, intelligere illis datum est ut possint regenerari, sed non habent intellectum illustratum alii quam qui vivunt secundum illa sic desiderant Vera Divina inse, hoc comprehendebant percipiebam quanta illustratione essent quod interiora eorum aperta in luce quod essent e regno coelesti, qui neque admittunt fidem, nec audiunt credere, sed dicunt ita ita, vel non non. [4] Quod essent in illustratione perciperent in se quid verum bonum, scire dabatur ex eo, quod [cum] dicerentur illis plura de charitate, de amore, de regenerationibus de Domino, quod illico scirent quod ita esset. [5] Postea veniebam alios spiritus ex eadem tellure, qui adhuc ulterius, ab occidentali latere telluris illius, illi dicebant me, quod apud me nihil nisi malum, respondebam, quod id sciam quod similiter sit apud illos apud quoscunque quod omne bonum quod alicui sit a Domino; inde percipiebant quod in veritate essem, ideo mecum de illa re loquebantur ostendebant ideam suam de bono quod a Domino de malo quod in homine quod semper Divinum ducat bonum, tametsi malum una sequitur, sed usque distinctum unum ab altero, sic ut Divinum dominetur ducat refraenet ne malum in libertate sit agat. [6] Dein interrogabant me, quomodo Dominus apparet apud angelos e nostra tellure, dicebam, quod appareat in Sole quod Ipse sit Sol coeli ex quo omnis Lux angelis spiritibus, seu omnis lux omnibus in altera vita, dicebant, quod hoc sciant quod ita sit, sed quod usque Dominus aliter appareat illis, cum descendit praesens apparet. [7] Tunc mihi vivum ostensum est quomodo Dominus apparet apud illos, apparebat nubes obscura antrorsum in altitudine quadam, descendens nubes in descendendo apparebat magis magis in humana forma cum spiritus venit, tunc apparebat in jubare flammeo, circum quod stellulae ejusdem coloris cum ibi esset, congregabantur circum illum spiritus illius regionis ex omnibus locis tunc separabat illos, qui boni essent a dextris ejus qui non boni a sinistris sic ordinabat illos secundum quale probitatis bonitatis postea remisit illos sic ordinatos, dicebant quod hoc fiat quoties incipiunt mali feri probi a malis seduci, postea vidi Ipsum descendentem satis profunde tunc apparebat lucidus, at in via variabatur lucidum varie tandem in obscurum dictum quod hoc sit prorsus secundum illorum quos pertransit, probitatem bonitatem, apud illos sic qui in veris sunt apparet lucidus, apud illos qui in falsis ex malo obscurus, apud illos qui in bono flammeus; hoc videbant etiam spiritus ibi dicebant quod hoc aliquoties fiat quod ita fiat; dictum illis quod sic in ordinem redigat omnia illa quae inordinata facta sunt quoties in mala feruntur turbantur ex ordine, quod toties ita redigat in ordinem. [8] Qui ita illos missus apparuit, fuit societas angelica a Domino, in quorum tunc medio Divinum Domini, nam praesentia Ipsius in coelis est Divinum apud societates angelicas. [9] Tunc quoque a Domino omnes mali separati sunt a bonis conjecti in infernum sic repurgati, hoc fuit illis prima visitatio quam expectaverunt. [10] Postea quaerebam illos de tellure sua, qualis esset, primum de sole illorum e tellure, dicebant quod magnitudine capitis hominis quod flammeo colore; dein quod dies eorum aequet modo 9 horas nostri temporis, quod potuerunt ex ratione nostrorum dierum apud me dicere; quaerebam de annis eorum, dicebant quod habeat 200 dies, quod faciet paene 76 dies nostri temporis, inde concludere dabatur quod illis non hyems, sed paene autumnus, nam cum dies tam breves sunt anni tam breves, non posse increscere gelu, sed esse perpetuum aestivum, dixerunt etiam quod aestivum illis semper esset quod continue floreant campi eorum arbores eorum. [11] Dicebant etiam quod vescantur fructibus leguminibus non carnibus animalium quod bibant lac mixtum aqua; quod lanigeras [vaccas habeant] sicut oves, sed magnitudine vaccarum juvencorum. [12] Porro quod vivant inter se domus domus nusquam simul, sed usque quod conversationes sint cum illis intra familias; quoque quod modo unam conjugem habeant quod nusquam plures, quia hoc contra ordinem Divinum apud illos. [13] Porro, quod quovis trigesimo die conveniant audiant praedicationem ab illis qui illustrati sunt a Domino quod hoc fiat sub diu quod praedicator in pulpito edito aliquantum sit doceat; de revelatione dicebant, quod apud illos qui docent praedicant revelationes sint quandoque etiam apud alios quod revelatio ita fiat, quod tempore matutino cum in medio inter somnum vigiliam, audiant quasi angelos e coelo de Divinis veris de vita secundum illa quod cum in vigiliam veniant, appareat tacite lectum angelus in niveo, ac dispareat; inde illis constat, quod quae audiverunt, Divina sint; hoc fit, ut internoscantur visiones Divinae a visionibus non Divinis, in his enim non talis angelus apparet. [14] Dicebant quod ambulent ibi prorsus nudi, quoniam in domibus suis circum illas quia nuditas non illis pudori est, nihil lascivum ibi; at virgines non exeunt, sed manent domi, usque annos quando maritandae, tunc certa loca feruntur ponuntur post aliqua subsellia, per quae teguntur inferiora patent pectoralia tunc juvenes qui maritaturi erant, illuc veniunt vident illas sibi eligunt unam in uxorem; vident illico ex faciebus, num similes sint animis moribus, quoniam non reconduntur interiora eorum, sed patent e faciebus; hoc fit variis in locis; juvenes qui ducturi uxores illuc veniunt si non inveniant, redeunt cum elegerint, sequitur illa eum habitant in loco illis praeparato; est semper super subsellio a tergo senex vir qui prospicit, quod illa decenter fiant mulier vetusta a latere uno est, quae etiam praecavet ut omnia fiant decenter. [15] Viri pileum supra caput habent rotundum peripheria, nigrum. Domus eorum sunt humiles, solum ex lignis albis super quae tectum superius planum ad latera limbus obliquus, ab una parte istius domus sunt uxor vir cum ancillis famulis, continuatur etiam domus in longum ubi vaccae lanigerae. [16] Vidi homines ibi, erant facies eorum ampliores faciebus hominum nostrae telluris, erant careo colore sicut apud nos, sed oculi erant valde perspicaces, coruscantes ex luce interna, nam illis interior lux est, quia in tali statu. [17] Quod adhuc spiritus eorum attinet, conquesti sunt valde de advenis qui ex aliis telluribus illos veniunt, quod perturbent illos valde quoad illa quae cultus eorum sunt quod fugiant illos quod illi loquantur de talibus quae non intelligere possunt, quae dicunt credenda quod nec ipsi qui dicunt intelligant quod nihil aliud intendant quam ut dominentur super illos, apparebant plures ex illis, sed separati a spiritibus telluris istius, spiritus telluris erant a latere occidentali, illi autem a latere orientali; inter alios sunt monachi qui illuc veniunt perceptum quod essent ex illis qui in mundo peregrinati sunt circumcirca gentes converterunt, illi quoque ita peregrinantur in altera vita, dicebant de illo, quod non aliud dicat, primum cum venit, quam quod fides habenda sit de Domino, quod natus sit quod crucifixus passus pro nobis; quod missionarios ejus venerentur, cum haec audiunt, dicunt quod sciant Dominum esse hominem quod ab illis nihil scire possint, quoniam Ipse Dominus docet eos quod non sciant quid intendant. [18] Dixi quod incolae nostrae telluris habitent simul in urbibus, cum hoc audiverunt, fugerunt omnes sicut ex timore, sed usque e longinquo loquebar de illa re cum illis, dicebant, quod advenae illi similiter velint quod ideo fugiant, scientes quod si una viverent, tunc multa mala invaderent eos, ut libido dominandi quoque possidendi aliorum bona invidendi aliis sic inimicitiae, de quibus nihil sciunt cum solitarii vivunt domus domus, intellectum tunc quod advenae illi talia suaserint, variis modis, solum ex libidine imperandi quod ideo fugissent, cum audiverunt de urbibus. [19] Tunc vidi quod visitati sint illi advenae quod collecti sint in unum aliquot millia ejecti sint inde sic liberati a talibus cum illis monacho, qui apparuit nudus sed modo dimidium corpus, cintus pallio quoad pedes indutus calceis. [20] Cum ab illis abirem, sequebatur me inde spiritus ex illis, ut videret qualia essent objecta in nostra tellure, videbat plura utensilia ex porcellino seu argilla indica facta, vidit ex ferro, ex argento lignis varia plura quae in domo, dicebat quod talia nusquam viderit, cumque ei ostendere vellem urbem, quae patebat cum ascendebam in domo, illico aufugiebat, nolens illam videre ex causa de qua supra quoniam cum idea haberem urbem, etiam in idea habebam regimen per regem per primates plura. [21] Advenae vocant spiritus illius telluris simplices, quoniam illi ponunt omnem intellectum intelligentiam in malefaciendo, sed dixi, quod spiritus illius telluris appareant talibus simplices, sed usque millies sapientiores sunt, apud eos coelum est, apud illos autem infernum, ubi malitia est sapientia sapientia est simplicitas paene nihil. [22] Loquutus dein cum monacho, qui fuerat apud illos, explorabatur qualis esset, quid faceret ibi, dixit ut illos doceret de Domino; quid porro? de coelo de inferno, quid porro? de fide omnium quae dicturus, quid porro? de pontifice, quod ei potestas aperiendi coelum cuicunque libet, hoc audiverunt illi exploratus num crederet in Dominum, inventum quod in nullum Deum quid coelum infernum, quod non sciret quicquam quam quod coelum sit supra infernum infra; de fide, ut crederent quicquid vellet; de pontifice cum audiebant, dixerunt quod stultior sit omni homini, quod inter stultos amandandus, nam talia in alicujus mentem venire prorsus non putare posse; dicebatur ei quid ultra? dixit ut dominaretur super illos, hoc dicebant quid hoc, quid dominari? quod sic vellet auferre omnem lucem coelestem illis inferre tenebras inferni, quoniam nihil sciebat, nisi quae inferni essent; ne quidem quid Dominus, de quo ideam habuit prorsus humanam sicut de se. Inde patuit quod dominandi lubidine actus ibi moratus sit, quaerebant me quid valeat dominari? dicebam ut omnes essent ejus servi, quod sic per illum dominaentur inferna, nam dominia illis sunt amor, quem affectant, quae stupebant. Praeter [quod] maxime astutus in seducendo in eo gaudebat ingenio, tametsi nihil scivit de veris Divinis. [23] [Dicebant] quod habitent solitarii, domus domus, familiae familiae, gentes gentes quod paterfamilias sit inter eos supremus; illum venerantur, at is non dominatur super illos ex amore sui sed ex amore eorum seu erga eos, ita illis bene vult, plus quam sibi, sicut parens filiis, consulunt illum, ille consulit illis, de quacunque re; ita est dominium amoris inter illos, dominium amoris propter illos quantum differt a dominio amoris sui: quod ille amor sit e coelo ubi Divinus Amor talis est sui amor ex inferno, quia ibi amor sui regnat. Sed hodie tale regimen seu talis respublica non institui potest, quoniam unicuique ex haereditario insidet amor regnandi super alios propter sui honorem famam amor possidendi opes mundi ultra necessitates si posset vellet quisque possidere omnia in universa terra.