6050. A conversation with the English with respect to their preachers
I spoke with Englishmen who were in a society of heaven, particularly about their preachers. They said that they do not like the elegance of their sermons when they are derived from doctrine because they do not know and do not understand what they are saying. They sound elegant and consequently delight those who do not have a spiritual love for truth, but not others. They tell them to leave out such things since they don't learn anything, because they say they mistakenly think that such things are what are true, but still they do not know whether they are true, especially when they are about the effort to do what is good. They ask them (the preachers) what they mean by this, whether the effort is only hidden, or whether it is open. They say that it is hidden. They reply that they know this. Because the Lord does many things in secret, would He therefore not act openly? At this point the preacher does not dare to say anything other than that it also is open, but because the impulse to act flows in. When the Englishmen ask further whether or not, as a result, good must be done is if from oneself, this too the preachers hide under a formula that is not understood: that care must be taken lest a person act from himself, and thus that in the degree it comes from the person it is not good. Whether it is done as if from oneself, the case is the same.
[2] But it was said to them that if a person does not act as if from himself, what [flows in] disappears and is not accepted and is consequently not made one's own. But here they are stuck. At which point the Englishmen speak with them from the spiritual idea and convincingly prove this. But the preachers who have convinced themselves about this in the world do not withdraw from their doctrine because they teach in such a manner so that the listeners are unable to think that is so or that it is not so. As result the sermon is useless, on which account those preachers are eventually removed and sent off the among those who hold the doctrine of faith alone, who have nothing of good and truth in their lives, but, motivated by the renown of being learned, in their thought.After this they teach conscious awareness, but not conscious operation, and when they teach about operation, they so compose and connect their arcane doctrines in this manner that their listeners scarcely know otherwise than that they understand conscious operation, but still they do not understand it.
6050. A CONVERSATION WITH ENGLISHMEN ABOUT THEIR PREACHERS.
I spoke with Englishmen who were in a society of heaven, and, in fact, about their preachers. They stated that they are not fond of the elegance of their sermons, when these are doctrinal, because they do not know or understand what they say. The sermons have a fine sound, and so please those who are not in the spiritual love of truth, but not others. They tell them to leave out such things, since they do not learn anything; for they speak so that they [the hearers] suppose that such things are true, but yet do not know whether they are true; especially when the subject is the effort to do good. They inquire of them what they mean by this, whether the effort is merely latent, or whether it is manifest. They say that it is latent. They rejoin that they are aware of this, because the Lord operates many things in secret; but does He, or does He not, operate thus manifestly? Then the preacher dares not say anything else but that it also occurs manifestly, but that this is because the affection of doing inflows. When they inquire, further, whether therefore good ought to be done as of oneself, or not, this they also conceal under the oracular statement that man must take care not to act from himself, and thus that so far as it is of man it is not good. When asked whether man may act as of himself, the answer is that the case is similar. They were told, however, that, if man does not act as of himself, he receives nothing, and there is no reception, and hence no appropriation. But here they stop, when speaking to those who have a spiritual idea; and [the latter] carry their point. But preachers who have confirmed themselves in this, in the world, do not recede from their doctrine, inasmuch as they teach in such a manner that the hearers are not able to think that it is or that it is not so; consequently, their discourse is ineffectual. Wherefore, those preachers are at length removed, and sent among those who are in faith alone, who have nothing of truth or of good in the life, but only in thought, together with pride of scholarship. They afterwards teach that there is manifest operation; but not manifest operation and when they speak of operation, they again so involve, adjust and connect their arcana, that persons scarcely know other than that they mean manifest operation, but still they do not mean that.
6050. Cum Anglis de praedicatoribus illorum
Loquutus cum Anglis qui in societate e coelo fuerunt, et quidem de praedicatoribus illorum, dicebant quod non ament elegantiam sermonum illorum, dum ex doctrina, quia non sciunt et capiunt quid dicunt, sonant eleganter et sic jucundant illos qui non in amore spirituali veri sunt, sed non alios, dicunt ad illos ut omittant talia, quia non aliquid discunt, quia loquuntur ut putent quod talia sint quae vera sunt, sed usque non sciunt num vera, imprimis cum de conatu faciendi bonum, quaerunt illos, quid per illum intelligunt, num solum latentem, vel num manifestum, dicunt quod sit latens, respondent quod hoc sciant, quia operatur Dominus multa latenter, annon sic manifeste, tunc praedicator non audet dicere aliud quam quod etiam manifeste sit, sed quia influit affectio faciendi, dum quaerunt ulterius annon sic faciendum bonum sicut a se, hoc quoque recondunt sub expressione non intellecta, quod cavendum sit ne homo faciat a se, et sic quantum hominis non est bonum, num sicut a se, ita similiter, sed dictum illis, quod si non sicut a se homo faciat, quod evanescat, et non sit receptio, et inde non appropriatio, sed hic subsistunt, quando loquuntur cum illis ex idea spirituali, et evincunt; sed praedicatores qui confirmarunt se in mundo de eo, non recedunt a doctrina sua, quia docent ita, ut auditores non possint cogitare quod ita sit nec quod non ita sit, ita illis sermo est inutilis, quare praedicatores illi tandem removentur, et emittuntur inter illos qui in sola fide sunt, qui nihil veri aut boni in vita habent, sed in cogitatione ex gloria eruditionis. Postea docent manifestam perceptionem, sed non manifestam operationem, et cum de operatione, ita involvunt, concinnant et connectunt arcana sua taliter ut vix sciant aliter quam quod intelligant manifestam operationem, sed usque non intelligant illam.