322、在非基督徒中，如同在基督徒中一样，既有智慧的，也有简单的。为了让我了解他们，我被允许与这两种人交谈，时常几小时甚至几天。但如今没有像古代、特别是在古教会｛注1｝中那样的智者了。古教会覆盖了亚洲世界｛注2｝的大部分地区，宗教从那里传播到许多外邦民族。为了使我能完全了解他们，我被允许与这些智者中的一些人亲密地交谈。我和一个人在一起，他是他那个时代的智者，因此在学界很有名望。我和他谈过各种各样的话题，我有理由相信他就是西塞罗（Cicero）。我知道他是有智慧的人，就与他谈论智慧、聪明、秩序、圣经，最后谈论主。
[2]关于智慧，他说，除了生命的智慧，没有其他智慧，智慧不可能是其它任何事物的属性；关于聪明，他说，聪明出自智慧；关于秩序，他说，秩序出自至高上帝，照秩序生活就是智慧和聪明；至于圣经，当我给他读先知书中的某些内容时，他特别高兴，尤其每个名字、每个字都表示内层事物。令他十分惊讶的是，如今的学者却不以这种研究为快乐。我清楚地感觉到他的思想或心智的内层已经被打开。他说，他不能再听下去了，因为他感知到某种事物的神圣使他无法承受，它深深地感染他。
[3]最后，我和他谈到主。我说，主生而为人时，是从上帝成孕的；祂脱去了物质人身，并穿上神性人身；掌管宇宙的，就是祂。对此，他回答说，他知道一些关于主的事，并且在他看来，人类若要得救，没有其它途径。在这段时间里，一些坏基督徒向我们注入各种各样的苛责，但他对此毫不理会，说这没什么奇怪的，因为他们活在肉身时就已经在这些问题上吸收了不恰当的观念，他们若不除掉这些观念，就不能像无知的人那样承认那些确证真理的观念。
｛注1｝：【英212】“古教会”的拉丁原文是 ecclesia antiqua，这是史威登堡对圣经中洪水所代表的时代之后存在的教会的标签（创世记第 6-9 章），又被译为“早期教会”。请参阅上文第 115节和下文第327 节，了解史威登堡对人类起源以来“教会”传承的看法。
｛注2｝：【英213】“亚洲世界”的原文为orbis Asiatici，又译为“近东”。对于史威登堡来说，这不是指现在被称为亚洲的大陆，而是指希伯来圣经中的地理世界（参见下文第327节中的地名列表）。
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322. 在非基督徒当中, 和在基督徒当中一样, 既有智慧人, 也有简单人. 为叫我获知他们的性质, 我被允许与这两种人交谈, 有时几个小时甚至几天. 然而, 如今却没有古时, 尤其古教会中那样的智慧人; 古教会曾覆盖中东大部分地区, 宗教信仰从古教会传到众多非基督民族或外邦人那里. 为叫我全面了解他们, 我被允许与其中一些智慧人私下进行交谈. 有一个人与我同在, 他是他那个时代的智者之一, 因而在学术界享有盛名. 我与他谈论了各种话题, 并得以认为他就是西塞罗. 我知道他是一位智者, 便与他谈论智慧, 聪明, 秩序和圣言, 最后谈到主.
关于智慧, 他说, 除了生活的智慧外, 再没有其它智慧, 智慧不可能是其它任何事物的属性. 关于聪明, 他说, 聪明出自智慧. 关于秩序, 他说, 秩序出自至高神, 照秩序生活就是智慧和聪明. 至于圣言, 当我给他读先知书中的某些内容时, 他完全入了迷, 尤以这一事实而大为喜乐: 每个名, 每个字都表示内层事物. 令他十分惊讶的是, 如今的学者却不以这种追求为快乐. 我能清楚感觉到他思维的内层已经被打开. 他说, 他不能再听下去, 因为他感受到某种事物太过神圣, 以致他无法承受, 它如此深深地感染他.
最后, 我们的话题转向主, 我说, 主生而为人时, 是从神成孕的; 祂脱去了母亲方面的人性, 并披上神性人性; 掌管宇宙的, 就是祂. 对此, 他回答说, 他知道关于主的一些事, 并以自己的方式明白, 人类若要得救, 没有其它途径. 在此期间, 一些邪恶的基督徒向我们泼来各种各样的诽谤; 但他对此毫不理会, 声称这没什么奇怪的, 因为他们活在肉身时就已经在这些问题上吸收了不恰当的观念; 他们若不除掉这些观念, 就不能像单纯地无知之人那样承认确认真理的观念.
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322. 非基督徒有智有愚, 正如基督徒有智有愚。我被允許與兩者交談, 有時幾個時辰甚至幾天, 以便瞭解他們的情況。現代人不如古代人有智慧, 古教會的人就更不用說了(該教會覆蓋中東大部分地區, 散至許多非基督徒民族的信仰即源於此)。我被允許與他們一些人交談, 以瞭解他們的特質。
我遇見一人, 他曾是當代的一位智者, 在學術界享有盛名。我與他談論許多話題, 得以認出他就是西塞羅(Cicero)。既知其為智者, 我便與其談論智慧, 聰明, 實相, 聖言, 最後談到主。關於智慧, 他說智慧無不關乎生活, 不能屬於其它。關於聰明, 他說聰明源于智慧。關於實相, 他說實相出於至高之上帝, 照實相生活就是有智慧聰明。關於聖言, 我給他讀一段先知書, 他聽得入了神, 尤其陶醉於其中每個名, 每個字皆指向內在實質的事實。對於現代學者無此樂趣和追求, 他感到奇怪。我能清楚感覺到他的心靈深處已經打開。他說他不能逗留, 因為他深切感受到某種神聖, 使他無法承受。
最後, 我們的話題轉向主, 關於主從上帝受生, 在此地降生為人, 關於祂褪去從母親所受的人性, 披上神聖的人身, 關於祂是宇宙之主, 等等。他說他通過自己的途徑瞭解到許多關於主的事實, 且說舍此途, 人類不能得救。在此期間, 一些邪惡的基督徒盡力使用譭謗的伎倆, 但他毫不在意。他說這不奇怪, 因為他們在世之時, 曾在這些問題上吸收了不合宜的觀念, 若不拔除, 就不能像本無所知的人那樣輕鬆接受合乎真理的觀念。
322. There are wise and simple people among non-Christians just as there are among Christians. To show me what they were like, I have been allowed to talk with both kinds, sometimes for hours and even for days. Nowadays, though, there are not wise ones like those of ancient times, especially in the early church (this covered much of the Near East and was the source from which religion spread to many non-Christian peoples). I have been allowed to carry on personal conversations with some of them in order to find out what they were like.
One particular individual was with me who had been one of the wise at one time and who was therefore well known in the scholarly world.
I talked with him about various subjects and was given to believe that he was Cicero. Since I knew that he was wise, we talked about wisdom, intelligence, the pattern of reality, the Word, and finally about the Lord.
[2] On wisdom, he said that there was no wisdom that was not a matter of life, and that wisdom could not be an attribute of anything else. On intelligence, he said that it came from wisdom. On the pattern of reality, he said that the pattern comes from the Supreme Deity, and that living in accord with this pattern is being wise and intelligent. As to the Word, when I read him something from the prophets he was utterly enchanted, especially at the fact that the individual names and the individual words referred to deeper realities. He was quite astonished that modern scholars take no pleasure in this pursuit. I could sense very clearly that the deeper levels of his thought or mind were open. He said that he could not remain present because he felt something too holy for him to bear, it affected him so deeply.
[3] Finally, our conversation turned to the Lord - on his birth as a person here, but one conceived from God; on his putting off the maternal human nature and putting on a divine human nature; and on his being the One who rules the universe. He said that he knew a great deal about the Lord that he grasped in his own way, and that there was no other way the human race could have been saved. All this time, some evil Christians were showering us with libels of various kinds; but he paid no attention to them. He said it was not surprising. It was because during their physical lives they had soaked up notions on these subjects that were not fitting, and that until these were ousted they could not let in notions that supported [the truth] the way people who were simply ignorant could.
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322. Among the gentiles, as among Christians, there are both wise and simple. That I might learn about them I have been permitted to speak with both, sometimes for hours and days. But there are no such wise men now as in ancient times, especially in the Ancient Church, which extended over a large part of the Asiatic world, and from which religion spread to many nations. That I might wholly know about them I have been permitted to have familiar conversation with some of these wise men. There was with me a certain one who was among the wiser of his time, and consequently well known in the learned world, with whom I talked on various subjects, and had reason to believe that he was Cicero. Knowing that he was a wise man I talked with him about wisdom, intelligence, order, and the Word, and lastly about the Lord.
[2] Of wisdom he said that there is no other wisdom than the wisdom of life, and that wisdom cannot be predicated of anything else; of intelligence that it is from wisdom; of order, that it is from the Supreme God, and that to live in that order is to be wise and intelligent. As to the Word, when I read to him something from the prophets, he was greatly delighted, especially with this, that every name and every word signified interior things; and he wondered greatly that learned men at this day are not delighted with such study. I saw plainly that the interiors of his thought or mind had been opened. He said that he was unable to approach, as he perceived something more holy than he could bear, being affected so interiorly.
[3] At length I spoke with him about the Lord, saying that while He was born a man He was conceived of God, and that He put off the maternal human and put on the Divine Human, and that it is He who rules the universe. To this he replied that he knew many things concerning the Lord, and perceived in his way that if mankind were to be saved it could not have been done otherwise. In the meantime certain evil Christians infused various stumbling-blocks; but to these he gave no attention, remarking that this was not strange, since in the life of the body they had imbibed unbecoming ideas on the subject, and until they got rid of these they could not admit such ideas as confirmed the truth, as the ignorant can.
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322. Among the heathen, as among Christians, there are both wise and simple. That I might learn about them I have been permitted to speak with both, sometimes for hours and days. But there are no such wise men now as in ancient times, especially in the Ancient Church, which extended over a large part of the Asiatic world, and from which religion spread to many nations. That I might wholly know about them I have been permitted to have familiar conversation with some of these wise men. There was with me one who was among the wiser of his time, and consequently well known in the learned world, with whom I talked on various subjects, and had reason to believe that it was Cicero. Knowing that he was a wise man I talked with him about wisdom, intelligence, order, and the Word, and lastly about the Lord.
[2] Of wisdom he said that there is no other wisdom than the wisdom of life, and that wisdom can be predicated of nothing else; of intelligence that it is from wisdom; of order, that it is from the Supreme God, and that to live in that order is to be wise and intelligent. As to the Word, when I read to him something from the prophets he was greatly delighted, especially with this, that every name and every word signified interior things; and he wondered greatly that learned men at this day are not delighted with such study. I saw plainly that the interiors of his thought or mind had been opened. He said that he was unable to hear more, as he perceived something more holy than he could bear, being affected so interiorly.
[3] At length I spoke with him about the Lord, saying that while He was born a man He was conceived of God, and that He put off the maternal human and put on the Divine Human, and that it is He that governs the universe. To this he replied that he knew some things concerning the Lord, and perceived in his way that if mankind were to be saved it could not have been done otherwise. In the meantime some bad Christians infused various cavils; but to these he gave no attention, remarking that this was not strange, since in the life of the body they had imbibed unbecoming ideas on the subject, and until they got rid of these they could not admit ideas that confirmed the truth, as the ignorant can.
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322. Sunt inter Gentiles, sicut inter Christianos, sapientes et simplices. Ut instruerer quales sunt, cum illis et his datum est loqui, quandoque per horas et dies. Sed qui sapientes sunt, hodie non dantur sicut antiquis temporibus, imprimis in Antiqua Ecclesia, quae per multum orbis Asiatici diffusa fuit, e qua religio emanavit ad plures Gentes. Ut scirem quales fuerunt, cum quibusdam in familiari sermone esse datum est. Fuit apud me 1quidam, qui olim inter sapientiores fuit, et quoque inde notus in orbe erudito; cum quo de variis locutus sum; credere dabatur quod esset Cicero. Et quia novi quod sapiens fuerit, sermo fuit cum illo de sapientia, de intelligentia, de ordine, de Verbo, et demum de Domino.
[2] De sapientia dixit, quod non alia sapientia detur, quam quae est vitae, et quod de alia re sapientia praedicari nequeat: de intelligentia, quod illa sit inde: de ordine, quod ordo sit a Supremo Deo, et quod vivere in illo ordine sit sapiens et intelligens esse; quod Verbum attinet, cum praelegerem illi aliquid ex Propheticis, delectatus est quam maxime, praecipue ex eo, quod singula nomina, et singulae voces, significarent interiora, miratus valde quod eruditi hodie non delectentur tali studio. Percepi manifeste, quod interiora ejus cogitationis seu mentis aperta essent. Dixit quod non adesse posset, quia sanctius perciperet quam ut posset sustinere, ita enim interius afficiebatur.
[3] Tandem fuit sermo cum illo de Domino, quod natus sit Homo, sed conceptus a Deo, et quod exuerit humanum maternum ac induerit Humanum Divinum, et quod Ille sit qui universum regit. Ad haec respondit quod plura sciat de Domino, et appercepit suo modo quod non aliter fieri potuisset, si salvaretur genus humanum. Interea quidam Christiani mali infundebant varia scandala; sed illa non curabat, dicens quod non mirum sit, quia imbuerunt in vita corporis de illis non talia, sicut decet, et quod antequam talia discussa fuerint, non admittere possent illa quae confirmant, sicut ii qui ignorant.
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