3314. Afterwards those spoke with me who had been from the most ancient Church, who are in the highest place, one higher than which I think no place exists, saying they were from it and had been brought together and associated there, not knowing why they were at such a height, and that others seldom came to them, except several times from elsewhere, as they said, from the universe, but from which [earths] they did not know.
3314. 1/2. Further, I spoke with them about the Lord. They said they could not speak about the Lord, for their ideas are heavenly, and because there is a spiritual idea in the word Lord, as well as in other words by which the Lord is expressed, such as Jesus and Christ, they could therefore not grasp this, either, because the ideas were covered over by earthly things, because they are names. But when He was portrayed as mediator and regenerator, then about halfway allowing it, they acknowledged it, because there were then heavenly ideas that gave them inner sight.
They said they had awaited the Lord, Who was to come, Who would save the universal human race, but only those [said this] who had been alive at that time. When the most ancient Church began to decline and to be corrupted, a revelation was then made to them, for when asked
3314. Afterwards spoke with me they who have been from the Most Ancient Church, who were in the highest [place]; than which a higher, I think, is scarcely given. They said that they were thence, and are thus consociated [associated]; they are ignorant why they are in that attitude, and why others rarely come to them, save sometimes from elsewhere; as they said, from the universe, but from whom, they did not know.
3314 1/2. Moreover, I spoke with them concerning the Lord. They said they cannot speak concerning the Lord; for their ideas were celestial, and because in the Word, Lord is a spiritual idea; then also [I spoke] concerning other ideas, by which the Lord is expressed, for instance, Jesus, and Christ. And this they could not perceive for the reason that the ideas were covered up by naturals, because [they are] names; but when he was represented as mediator, because [they are] names; but when he was represented as mediator and regenerator (then almost half admitting [it], they acknowledged [it], because then there were celestial ideas, which gave perception. They said, that they expected the Lord to come, who should save the universal human race. But these were only those who lived when the Most Ancient Church began to decline and be perverted - revelation was at that time made to them, -
3314. Postea loquebantur mecum ii qui ab antiquissima Ecclesia fuerunt, qui in altissimo, quo altius vix reor dari, dicentes quod inde essent, et ibi consociati, nescientes cur in ea altitudine, et quod raro alii ad eos venirent, nisi aliquoties aliunde, ut dicebant ex universo, sed a quibus non sciebant.
3314a. Porro de Domino cum iis loquutum, dicebant se non posse de Domino loqui, eorum ideae enim sunt coelestes et quia voci Domini inest idea spiritualis, tum etiam aliis ideis, quibus Dominus exprimitur, sicut Jesus et Christus, hoc nec ideo potuerunt percipere, quia obrutae erant 1
ideae naturalibus, quia nomina, cum autem repraesentatus mediator et regenerator, tunc 2
fere ad dimidium admittentes, agnoscebant, quia tunc coelestes ideae erant, quae dabant perceptionem. Dicebant, quod exspectaverint Dominum venturum, Qui salvaret universum genus humanum, sed modo ii tunc erant, qui vixerunt; cum antiquissima Ecclesia coepit declinare et perverti, iis tunc revelatio facta,
(3315.) nam cum diceretur iis, num scirent quid significet, quod semen mulieris proculcaret caput serpentis [Gen. III: 15], dicebat unus quod is esset, qui hoc primum dixit, at quia societas erat, eis dictum, quod totus coetus ita communiter diceret, et exspectaret Dominum venturum in mundum Qui salvaret genus humanum, at antequam instruerentur, non admittere volebant, quod nasceretur homo, sed cum dictum quod non ex semine 3
viri, sed ex mulieris, et quod non natus ex semine viri, sed ex semine mulieris, sicut verba quoque dicunt, quod semen mulieris proculcaret caput serpentis, tunc agnoscebant, tametsi non facile, quia perceptionem habent hominis ex semine viri nati 4
. Dicebant porro, quod ab eo tempore nihil cogitaverint fere nisi de prole, sic ut eorum continuae delitiae essent conjuges amare ob prolem; quod quoque mihi ostensum, per id quod totius corporis
(3316.) delitiae in vigilia et somno tenerent 5
regionem lumborum, et nihil avidius vellent quam procreare sobolem: et percipiebam quod ex causa, quia influebat ex adventu Domini in mundum, sic insinuatum, operante 6
; inde eorum intimae delitiae jucundissimae seu jucunditates delitosissimae, quae non aliter quam influerent {a}, sicut amor conjugialis et storge, ita una cum amore, non amplius conjugis interius, sed solum erga prolem, quare nunc percipio, quod amor conjugis perierit, et manserit in amore erga prolem, seu in storge; sicut etiam ab Ecclesia ista, et antiqua sequenti constare potest, quod nullam jucunditatem praetulerint amori prolis, quod ex multis constat; de quibus alibi, dignante Domino.
Footnotes:
1. This is how it appears in J.F.I. Tafel's edition; the Manuscript has erat
2. in J.F.I. Tafel's edition tum
3. The Manuscript has simine
4. The Manuscript has natum sed in J.F.I. Tafel's edition naturi
5. The Manuscript has teneret
6. In the Manuscript adventum in adventu et, ut apparet, operantem imperfecte in operante emendatum; inter punctum post insinuatum additum