4651. With spirits, [saying to them] that they bring punishment on themselves, and that a punishment is joined to evil
I was with certain spirits talking about the evil of punishment and misfortune that comes upon the evil and that they bring it on themselves. They thought that it appears otherwise and that it is not so because the punishers come and punish, that is to say, that there are other spirits who do this, and therefore they do not bring punishment on themselves. They were told that if they had not done evil, the punishers would not have come, but they do not understand this to be so. The truth was pointed out by a comparison: If anyone strikes his hand against a wall containing spikes and thus injures his hand, is it the wall that brought on the injury, or is it he himself who brought it on himself? It appears as if it were the wall, but they know that the fact is that it comes from them, and so, that they do it to themselves. It is even more obvious from laws in the world: one who does evil is punished as soon as he is convicted of having committed the crime, for then he brings the punishment upon himself even though others apply it. So in the world too, evil and the punishment of evil are joined together. This is the law's intent, and more so in the other life. Finally they understood.
It was concluded that this comes from the fact that good has reward within it and happiness joined to it. From this fact is derived the law in the opposite case that evil has punishment within itself and damnation joined to itself. If one is postulated, the other is also, for opposites behave alike, but oppositely.
4651. [A DISCOURSE] WITH SPIRITS TO THE EFFECT THAT THEY BRING PUNISHMENT UPON THEMSELVES, AND THAT PUNISHMENT IS CONJOINED WITH EVIL.
I was in conversation with certain spirits, concerning the evil of punishment, and of misfortune that happens to the evil; [and I said] that they themselves bring it on themselves. They thought that it appears otherwise, and hence that it is not so, because punishers come and punish, and that they are other spirits who do this, and, therefore, that they do not bring the punishment on themselves. They were told, that if they had not done evil the punishers would not have come; but this they did not very well understand. The truth was exhibited by means of a similar case: if anyone strikes his hand against a wall where there are spikes, and so hurts his hand, whether it is the wall which occasions the hurt, or whether it is they who bring it upon themselves: it appears as if it were the wall; but they know it comes from them, and so, that they do it to themselves. It is still more clearly manifest from laws in the world: he who commits evil is punished, as soon as convicted of having done the evil; for, then, he draws the punishment upon himself, although others administer it. Thus also are evil, and the punishment of evil, conjoined in the world. Such is the intention of the laws. It is still more so in the other life. At length, they comprehended. It was concluded that this springs from the fact that good has in itself rewards, and, conjoined with itself, happiness. Hence is derived the law, in opposites, that evil has in itself punishment, and, conjoined with itself, damnation. In the one provision the other is provided; for opposites are similarly, but oppositely, circumstanced.
4651. Cum spiritibus quod ipsi sibi poenam inducant, et quod malo conjuncta sit poena
Cum quibusdam spiritibus in sermone fui, de malo poenae et infortunii quod contingit malis, quod illi sibimet ipsis inferant; cogitabant quod aliter appareat, et inde quod non ita sit, quia punitores veniunt, et puniunt, seu quod alii spiritus sint qui hoc faciunt, et inde quod non sibimet ipsis poenam inferant: dictum illis, quod si malum non fecissent, non venissent punitores, sed hoc non ita intellexerunt; remonstrabatur veritas per simile, si quis manum impingit contra murum ubi aculei, et sic laedat manum, an hoc sit murus qui infert, aut num hoc sint ipsi qui sibimet inferunt, apparet sicut murus, sed in illorum scito hoc est, quod ab illis venit, ita quod sibi ipsis hoc faciant; apparentius constat ex legibus in mundo, qui malum facit, ille punitur ut primum convictus est quod malum fecerit, nam tunc ille poenam sibi inducit, tametsi alii hoc ministrant, ita quoque ibi malum et poena mali conjuncta sunt, hoc leges volunt: magis in altera vita, tandem comprehenderunt. Conclusum fuit, quod hoc veniat ex eo, quod bonum in se remunerationem habeat et felicitatem sibi conjunctam; inde derivatur lex in oppositis, quod malum in se habeat poenam, et damnationem sibi conjunctam; posito uno ponitur alterum, nam opposita se similiter habent, sed opposite.