4785. About the Moravian congregation
I heard spirits speaking with those who were from the Moravian Church, and at that time they disclosed a part of the secrets of their religion: 1) about the Lord, they acknowledge Him as a person who was sent by God, so that He might save the human race by suffering on the cross, 2) also by fulfilling the Law and thus abstaining from sins. 3) He was therefore recognized as a son by the Father and was called the Son of God. 4) Faith for them is trust in Him, fortroende 1, not as a trust in God, but as toward a person; consequently they have something like a love for that person because they do not love him as God, but as a person who is the best of people. 5) In the other life they retain the same faith, and some retain the trust for Him as a person. And at that time it is granted some [of them] to speak with a certain angel sent by the Lord. They speak with him about salvation, but in this way: so that He will pray to the Father that they may be received into heaven. However the angel answers them that as a person He cannot do this but as God He can, therefore it is not granted them. Eventually they realize that the reason is that they have an idea of the Lord as a person and not as God. 6) They also say that on account of His obedience in the world, He has power in heaven and on earth, but not over heaven and over earth. 7) Because they do not acknowledge the Lord as God, but as a person, in common speech they call Him a lamb, and by this they understand innocence. 8) Of charity they know nothing, and little about piety, but put everything in this trustנfortroende, which they call faith. 9) When it is said to them that the Lord says in the Word that He is one with the Father [John 10:30], they reply that this means as a friend, [thus] through friendship, others say, through love. 10) When it is said to them that the Lord says that He was born from the Father from eternity [John 1:1, 18], and that He would return to the Father where He was before [John 17:5], they are unable to reply to this. When it was then said to them that to be born from God from eternity is to be God, and that He could not have been born otherwise than from God from eternity, they do not want to reply to this because they think this is their secret of all secrets, which is namely, that to be "born" signifies to be reborn, and "from eternity" that it was foreseen. 11) Their inmost dogma about the Lord they do not want to make public because if they did they would be classed among Socinians, who cannot be tolerated in Christianity.
Footnotes:
1. Swedish for "confidence, trust"
4785. CONCERNING THE MORAVIAN CONGREGATION
I heard spirits speaking with those who are of the Moravian Church; and they then opened, in part, the arcana of their religion. First, concerning the Lord, that they acknowledge Him as a man sent by God, in order that, by means of the passion of the cross, He might save the human race. Second, by this means also, that He should fulfill the law, and so abstain from sins. Third, hence He was acknowledged as son by the Father, and called the Son of God. Fourth, faith with them is confidence [fortroende] 1in Him, not as in God, but as towards a man; hence they have something like love towards Him, though they do not love Him as God, but as man [loves] a very good man. Fifth, in the other life, they retain the same faith, and some that confidence in Him as a man; and it is then granted to some to speak with a certain angel who is sent by the Lord. With him they speak concerning salvation, but only with the object that He [the Lord] may pray the Father to receive them into Heaven; but the angel answers them, that, as man, He cannot, but as God; wherefore their request is not granted. At length, they know that the reason is because they have, about the Lord, the idea of a man, and not of God. Sixth, they also say, that, on account of obedience in the world, He has power in heaven and earth, but not over heaven and earth. Seventh, inasmuch as they do not acknowledge the Lord as God, but as man, in general conversation they call him the Lamb, and thereby understand the innocent one. Eighth, they make nothing of charity, and little of piety, but place all things in that confidence, or fortroende, which they call faith. Ninth, when told that the Lord, in the Word, says that He is one with the Father, they reply that it is understood as a friend, that [is] through friendship, others say through love. Tenth, when it is said to them that the Lord says that He was born of the Father from eternity, and that He should return to the Father and be where He was before, to this they are unable to reply. They were then told that to be born of God from eternity, is to be God; and that, otherwise, he could not have been born of God from eternity. They were not willing to reply to this, because they thought this to be the arcanum of their arcana, which [arcanum] is to this purpose, that to be born signifies to be reborn, and from eternity [that it was] foreseen. Eleventh, their inmost dogma concerning the Lord they are not willing to publish, because thus they would be reckoned amongst Socinians, who are not to be tolerated in Christendom.
Footnotes:
1. A Swedish word, meaning trust or confidence.
4785. De congregatione Moraviana
Audivi spiritus loquentes cum illis qui ab Ecclesia Moraviana, et aperuerunt tunc quoad partem arcana suae religionis,
1) de Domino, quod agnoscant Ipsum ut hominem, qui missus a Deo, ut per passionem crucis salvaret genus humanum:
2) per id etiam quod impleret legem, et sic abstineret a peccatis;
3) inde a patre pro filio agnitus, et dictus filius Dei,
4) fides apud illos est confidentia in Ipsum, fortroende 1
, non ut in Deum sed ut erga hominem, inde illis aliquod simile amoris erga illum, nam non amant Ipsum ut Deum sed ut homo hominem optimum.
5) In altera vita retinent eandem fidem, et quidam illam confidentiam pro illo ut homine, et tunc datur quibusdam loqui cum angelo quodam, qui missus a Domino, cum illo loquuntur de salvatione, sed eo modo ut oret Patrem ut recipiantur in coelum, sed angelus illis respondet, quod sicut homo non possit, sed sicut Deus quare non conceditur illis, tandem sciunt quod causa sit quia de Domino habent ideam hominis et non Dei,
6) dicunt etiam quod ei potestas sit in coelo et in terra, propter obedientiam in mundo, non autem super coelum et super terram.
7) Quia non agnoscunt Dominum ut Deum sed ut hominem, in communi sermone vocant illum agnum, et per id intelligunt innocentem.
8) De charitate nihil faciunt, et parum de pietate, sed omnia ponunt in confidentia illa, seu fortroende, quam vocant fidem.
9) Cum illis dictum est, quod Dominus in Verbo dicat quod unum sit cum Patre [Joh. X: 30], respondent quod id intelligatur sicut amicus, [sic] per amicitiam, alii dicunt per amorem.
10) Cum illis dictum, quod Dominus dicat quod natus sit a Patre ab aeterno [Joh. I: 1, 18, 18], et quod rediret ad Patrem ubi prius [Joh. XVII: 5], ad hoc respondere non possunt, illis tunc dictum quod nasci a Deo ab aeterno est esse Deus, et quod aliter a Deo ab aeterno non potuerit nasci, ad haec non volebant respondere, quia cogitabant hoc arcanum arcanorum eorum esse, quod est tale, quod nasci significet renasci, et ab aeterno quod praevisum.
11) Intimum suum dogma de Domino non volunt propalare,quia sic referrentur inter Socinianos, qui non in Christianismo tolerandi.
Footnotes:
1. = fiducia, confidentia (vox suecica)