5630. After these things were said, I, together with certain Englishmen, was brought to Italians who were extremely cunning and were like this inwardly and who in their life had burned with such atrocious practices. When I came, at a distance I was immediately aware of contempt for those coming [to them] and of how great it would be for them if they, so to speak, owned heaven and earth. We came closer and I then spoke with them. First we asked something about the Lord. They said that they have all His power because it was given to them by Peter. But, we asked, what did they think about God the Father? Did they have all His power too? They said that they did not, but only the Lord's with respect to His Human Nature. We replied, how do they understand that the Lord nevertheless says He is one with the Father [John 10:30], that the Father is in Him and He in the Father [John 14:10], that His Divine and Human are one, as the soul and the body 1; and because this is so, that they cannot be separated. Consequently I do not grasp [their belief] unless they are saying that they have Divine power, and even that of the Father Himself.
[2] At this they were at first silent and consulted; then they said that they had not heard such before and could not reply to this until after they consulted among themselves. Nevertheless they wished to say something, but we replied that it must be expressed to us in the speech of mental images such as the wise have in the other life and not in a speech of terms, for if they want to gather terms from the scholastics and from Aristotle, this is ridiculous and is never accepted by anyone who is intelligent because in this way the most false things can be proven.
[3] After further consultation they sent a certain one to me who had been an Inquisitor with them. But on approaching he said that he is not of that religion but of another and besides he did not dare [to speak] there. On account of this they wanted to take to their own tricks and deceptions and said that they were going to respond in another way. But we said that this would be of no avail because we are speaking from Divine Truths, and that they know that one who attacks Divine Truth attacks the Divine itself, and that no one dares do anything against Divine Truth in the other life.
Footnotes:
1. From The Athanasian Creed, see The New Jerusalem and its Heavenly Doctrine 288.
5630. After these things were said, I was conducted, along with certain Englishmen, to Italians who have been exceedingly crafty, and such inwardly, and who have burned with such crimes in their life. When I came to a distance [from them], I immediately perceived [in them] contempt for us who were coming and a great notion of themselves, as if they would possess heaven and earth. We approached nearer; and, then, I spoke with them. I asked, at first, something about the Lord: they said that they have all His power, inasmuch as it was given them through Peter. But I asked what they thought about God the Father; whether they have His power, also. They said that they have not, but only that of the Lord as regards the Human. We asked, in reply, how they understand this, that the Lord yet declares Himself to be one with the Father; that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; and that His Divine and Human is one like the soul and body, and, that because this is so, they cannot be divided; and [pointed out] that they do not so perceive the matter unless they say that they have Divine power, and also that of the Father Himself. At this, they, at first, held their peace, and consulted together: afterwards, they said that they have not heard such a thing before, and that they cannot reply to it until after they have consulted among themselves. They still wished to say something; but we answered that the speaking native to man is through the speech of ideas such as belongs to the wise in the other life, and not through a speech of terms; but, that, if they want to hunt up terms from the school-men and from Aristotle, this is ridiculous, and is never admitted by any intelligent man, because, in this way, the greatest falses may be confirmed. Then, after they consulted further, they sent to me a certain one who had been an Inquisitor among them; but, when he approached, he said that he is not of that religion but of another, and, moreover, that he did not dare [to say anything] there. Wherefore, they wished to resort to their arts and deceits, and said that they would reply in another way. But I said that this avails nothing, because we speak from Divine Truth; and that they know that he who attacks Divine Truth assails the Divine itself: also, that nobody ventured anything against Divine Truth in the other life.
5630. Quibus dictis, cum quibusdam Anglis perductus sum ad Italicos qui astuosissimi fuerunt, ac intus tales, et qui flagrarunt talibus nefandis in vita sua, cum ad distantiam veni percepi illico contemtum pro venientibus, et magnitudinem pro se quasi forent quod possiderent coelum et terram, accessimus propius, et tunc loquutus cum illis, quaerebamus primum aliquid de Domino, dicebant quod omnem illius potestatem habeant, quia illis per Petrum data, sed quaerebamus quid cogitant de Deo Patre, num etiam illius potestatem habeant, dicebant quod non habeant, sed solum Domini quoad Humanum, respondebamus, quomodo id intelligant, quod usque Dominus dicat se unum esse cum Patre [Joh. X: 30], quod Pater in Ipso, et ipse in Patre [Joh. XIV: 10], et quod Divinuum Ipsius et Humanum, sit unum sicut anima et corpus, 1
et quia ita est, quod separari nequeant, et quod sic non percipiam nisi etiam dicant se habere Divinam potestatem et quoque Ipsius Patris; ad haec tacebant primum et consultabant, dicebant dein quod tale non audiverint prius, et quod ad hoc non respondere possent quam postquam inter se consultarunt; volebant usque aliquid dicere, sed respondebamus, quod loquendum nobiscum sit per loquelam idearum, qualis est sapientibus in altera vita, et non per loquelam terminorum, nam si terminos vellent conquirere ex scholasticis, et ex Aristotele, quod hoc ridiculum sit, et nusquam admittatur a quodam intelligente, quia sic falsissima possunt confirmari; postquam ulterius consultabant, miserunt ad me quendam qui fuerat Inquisitor apud illos, sed is cum accessit, dixit quod non ex illa religione sit, sed ex alia, et praeterea quod non ausit ibi; quapropter volebant ad suas artes, et dolos se conferre, et dicebant, quod responsuri alio modo; sed dicebamus, quod hoc nihil valeat, quia ex Vero Divino loquimur, et quod sciant quod qui Verum Divinum aggreditur, quod ipsum Divinum aggrediatur et quod contra Verum Divinum nemo aliquid ausit in altera vita,
Footnotes:
1. ex Athanasii Symbolo, vide NHDC 288