5970. About faith separated from charity
There was a certain spirit from England to whom I read the customary prayers preceding the holy supper in England so that he might see from this that in England faith separate from charity is not acknowledged, but charity is, and that one who does not have it is damned. When this prayer was read, he said that he had not believed otherwise than that all these things are faith. Therefore it was said that if these are faith, they cannot be separated from life. He thought about this and said that he certainly had thought a bit about faith but now realized that faith is the same as life. After this he spoke with certain preachers about this and wanted to know if faith were not a matter of living in such a way. They, because they thought otherwise, could hardly reply now that it can be separated; but because this was contrary to prayers, they said only that the learned do not believe so. The spirit asked whether they did not then come into damnation according to these words. They wanted to say that they did not but were unable to say so, but they said that when they read these prayers in Churches, they do then believe those are damned who do not live in such a way. They wanted to speak about justification by faith alone, or what justification is without such faith as is maintained in the prayers. He could not understand. They also wanted say that these prayers were for the common folk, that is to say, the simple-minded. They thought that through this religion they would be constrained to live well morally, but they did not dare say this either because it is atheistic [to think] that religion is for the common people. They withdrew then and consulted among themselves about this prayer, and certain ones wanted to change it to agree with their doctrine about faith as separate and about justification by it, but they heard that if they did this, they would be thrown out of the Church and damned in accord with the words in the prayers, that is, as they proclaim, to hell.
5970. FAITH SEPARATED FROM CHARITY.
There was a certain spirit from England, in whose presence I read the prayers used in England before the Holy Supper, so that he might see thence that, in England, it is not faith separated [from] charity that is acknowledged, but charity and that he who is not in that comes into condemnation. That spirit, after that prayer had been read, stated that he had not believed other than that all those things are faith; wherefore it was said that if those things are faith, then faith cannot be separated from life. He thought over that matter, and said that he had, indeed, had some thought about faith, but now perceives that faith is the same thing as life. After that, he talked with certain preachers about that matter, and wished to know whether faith was not, in this manner, living. They, inasmuch as they thought differently, could reply only with difficulty, that it can now be separated; but, since this was contrary to the prayers, they said that the learned do not so believe. That spirit rejoined, Do they not, then, come into condemnation, according to those words? They wished to say, No, but could not. Wherefore, they said that, while they are reading those prayers in church, they then believe that those are condemned who do not thus live. They wished to speak of justification by faith alone; but he was unable to understand what justification is without such faith as is contained in those prayers. They also wished to say that those prayers were for the vulgar, or for the simple-minded. They thought, that, by means of that religion, these might be held in bonds to live well morally; but they did not dare say this, because the principle that religion is for the vulgar is atheistic. They then withdrew, and consulted together about that prayer; and some wished to alter it into agreement with their doctrine respecting faith separated and justification thereby; but they heard, that, if they were to do this, they would be cast out of the Church, and be condemned according to the words in the prayers that is, as they proclaim, to hell.
5970. De fide separata a charitate
Erat quidam spiritus ex Anglia, coram quo legi preces in Anglia solennes ante sacram coenam, ut inde videret, quod in Anglia non agnoscatur fides separata [a] charitate, sed charitas, et quod qui non in illa, in damnationem veniat, ille spiritus, illa prece lecta, dixit quod non aliter crediderit, quam quod omnia illa sint fides, quare dictum est, quod si illa sint fides, quod non separari possit fides a vita, cogitavit de ea re, et dixit quod quidem cogitaverit aliquid de fide, sed nunc percipiat quod fides sit eadem cum vita; postea loquebatur cum praedicatoribus quibusdam de illa re, et voluit scire annon fides esset ita vivere; qui quia aliter cogitaverunt, aegre potuerunt respondere nunc quod separari possit, sed quia hoc erat contra preces, dixerunt [solum] quod eruditi non ita credant, dicebat ille spiritus, annon tunc in damnationem veniant secundum verba illa, voluerunt dicere quod non, sed non potuerunt, quin dicebant quod dum legunt illas preces in Templis, quod tunc credant damnari qui non ita vivunt; volebant loqui de justificatione per solam fidem, seu quid justificatio absque tali fide quae continetur in precibus, non posset intelligere; voluerunt etiam dicere, quod preces illae essent pro vulgo seu pro simplicibus, cogitabant ut per illam religionem tenerentur in vinculis ad vivendum moraliter bene, sed hoc nec ausi sunt, quia est atheisticum quod religio sit pro vulgo; secesserunt dein et consultarunt inter se de prece illa, et quidam voluerunt ut mutarent in consentanea doctrinae eorum de fide separata et de justificatione per illam, sed audiverunt quod si hoc facerent, dejicerentur ab Ecclesia, et damnarentur secundum verba in precibus, quod est, ut sonant, ad infernum.