280.记事四：
有一次，我远远看见一排排树木之间的人行道，成群结队的年轻人聚在那里。每一群人都是一个聚会，人们在那里讨论有关智慧的话题。
这事发生在灵界。我朝那里走去，正当接近时，就看见一个人，他被其他人尊为领袖，因为他智慧超群。一看见我，他说：“真奇怪！我观察你一路走来，时隐时现。有时我看见你，有时你又消失不见了。你所在的生命状态肯定和我们这地的人不同。” 对此，我笑着回应说：“我不是魔术师，也不是威耳廷努斯（罗马的四季之神，掌管自然和生命的交替变化）。但在你眼里，我时而出现在光中，时而出现在阴影中，所以，在此既是外人，也是本地人。” 这位智者闻言盯着我说：“你说的这些话非同寻常、不可思议。请告诉我你是谁。”我说：“我所在的世界被称为自然界，你原来也在那里，不过现已离开了。我也在你如今所在的这个世界，就是所谓的灵界。所以，我既处于属世的状态，同时也处于属灵的状态。我与世人同在时，处于属世的状态，与你们同在时，则处于属灵的状态。处于属世状态时，你看不到我；处于属灵状态时，你能看到我。我所具有的这种能力是主的恩赐。作为一个受到启示的人，你很清楚，属于自然界的人无法看到属于灵界的人，反之亦然。因此，当我将我的灵融入身体时，你看不到我；而当我将它从身体中释放出来时，你就看到了。这是由于属灵物与属世物之间的区别。”
当听到“属灵物与属世物之间的区别”这句话时，他说：“区别是什么？这区别不就像较纯之物与次纯之物的区别吗？所以，属灵物不过是更纯粹的属世物而已。”“不是这种区别，”我答道，“属世物永远不可能被提纯到足以接近属灵物，以至于成为属灵物的程度。因为这种区别就像在先之物与在后之物之间的那种区别，它们之间没有有限的比率关系。因为在先者存在于在后者，就像起因存在于其结果。在后者源于在先者，如同结果源于其起因。这就是为何二者互相看不到的原因。”对此，智者说：“关于这种区别，我曾冥思苦想过，但至今不得其解。但愿我能理解它。”我回答说：“你不但能理解属灵物与属世物的这种区别，还能亲眼见证它。”于是，我继续说：“与你们的人在一起时，你处于属灵的状态，但与我在一起时，则处于属世的状态。你与你们的人交谈时，用的是所有灵人和天使共享的属灵语言，但与我交谈时，用的则是我的母语。凡与世人交谈的灵人或天使都是以此人的母语来说话。与法国人说话用法语，与英国人用英语，与希腊人用希腊语，与阿拉伯人则用阿拉伯语，依此类推。
所以，你若要知道语言的属灵物与属世物之间的区别，可以这样做：去到你们的人那里，说几句话并记住它们。回来时，把这些话牢记在心，再当着我的面说出来。”他照做了，回到我这里时嘴里念叨着几句话。当他们说出这些话，它们完全是奇怪和陌生的，以至于在尘世的语言中根本找不到。反复的体验清楚表明，灵界的所有人都拥有属灵的语言，这种语言与尘世的语言毫无共同之处。死后，人人都自动掌握这种语言。同时，我还通过经历发现，属灵语言的声音与属世语言的大不相同，以致属灵的声音哪怕再大，属世人也听不见，反之亦然。
后来，我请他和一些旁观者到他们自己人那里，在纸上写下一句话，然后带回来读给我听。他们照做了，回来时手里拿着一张纸。但是，他们去读的时候，丝毫不明白什么意思。因为这行字只有几个字母表上的字母，它们上面全是曲线，其中每一个字母都表示属于主题的某种事物。在灵界，字母表中的每个字母都表示某种意义，由此明显可知，为何主被称为“阿拉法和俄梅戛”。他们反复体验后发现，这种字母牵涉和包含无数事物，是属世文字所无法表达的。他们被告知，这是因为，属灵人的思维对于属世人来说，难以领会，无法言表，它们无法被转换成另外一种文字或语言。
然后，由于旁观者不愿去领会属灵的思维远远胜过属世的思维，以至相对来说无法形容，我就对他们说：“让我们做个实验吧。你们到自己的灵界社群去，思想一个观念，并牢记在心，然后回来在我面前阐明它。”他们就去了，思想了一个主题，并记在心里出来了。但他们去阐明所思想的主题时，却做不到。他们发现属世的思想观念无法适应纯属灵的思想观念，也找不到合适的词语来表达它们，因为思想观念会变成言语中的词语。后来，他们又体验了一次，终于确信：对属世人来说，属灵的观念远远胜过属世的观念，对属世人来说难以形容，不可思议，无法理解。由于属灵的观念远远胜过属世的观念，故他们说，属灵的观念或思维与属世的相比，是观念中的观念，思维中的思维，因而能表达品质中的品质，情感中的情感。由此可知，属灵思维是属世思维的开始和起源。这一切还表明，属灵的智慧是智慧中的智慧，因而对于世上的任何智者来说都是无法言传的。
这时，他们从高层天堂得知，还有一种更内在或更高级的所谓属天智慧。属天智慧之于属灵智慧，犹如属灵智慧之于属世智慧。这些智慧照着来自主的无限神圣智慧的各个天堂而依次流入。就在这时，与我交谈的这人说：“我明白这一点，是因为我发现一个属灵观念就是许多属灵观念的容器。这也得出这样一个结论：被分割之物不是变得越来越简单，而是变得越来越复杂，因为它越来越接近那包含一切无限事物的无限者。”
这一切发生后，我对旁观者说：“通过这三个经验证据，你们已明白属灵物与属世物之间存在什么样的区别，还明白为何灵人看不到世人，世人也看不到灵人，尽管二者都具有完整的人形，并因这人形而在各自看来他们似乎能看到彼此。但构成那形式的是属于心智的内层；灵人和天使的心智是由属灵事物形成的，而世人只要活在世上，其心智就由属世事物形成。”话音刚落，就听见有声音从高层天堂传来，对站在旁边人说：“请上到这里来。”于是，他就上去了，回来后说，天使以前也不知道属灵物与属世物之间的区别，因为他们没有机会在一个同时在这两个世界的人身上进行比较，由于缺乏对比和检验，故无从得知这些区别。
分别之际，我们又谈论了这个话题，我说：“这些区别唯独缘于以下事实：你们身在灵界，是实质的，而非物质的；实质事物是物质事物的起点。物质不就是实质的聚集吗？所以，你们在初始、因而在最小粒子的层面，而我们在衍生物和复合物的层面。你们在细节层面，而我们在总体层面。正如总体无法进入细节，物质的属世物无法进入实质的属灵物。这就像船上的粗绳索无法进入或穿过针眼，或神经无法被引入构成它的一根纤维。这就是为何属世人无法思考属灵人的想法，从而无法表达它们的原因。所以保罗声称，他从第三天听到的话是“不可说的”（哥林多后书12:4）。
“此外，属灵的思维是脱离时空的思维，而属世的思维则牵涉时空。属世思维的一切观念都粘附着某种时空之物，而属灵思维的一切观念则不然。这是因为，灵界不像自然界那样处在时空中，但都处在这二者的表象中。思维和觉知在这方面也不同。因此，你们能从永恒思想神的本质和全在，也就是说，思想创世前的神。因为你们脱离时间概念思想神的本质，脱离空间概念思想祂的全在。如此思想，你们就会领悟远远超越世人的属世观念的观念。”
我继续讲述自己曾如何从永恒思想神的本质和全在，也就是思想创世前的神。当时我还没能将时空的概念从我的思想观念中剔除，很是苦恼，因为进入我脑海的，是自然界的概念，而不是神。但我被告知：“剔除时空概念，你就会明白。”这时，我蒙恩得以剔除它们，于是就明白了。从那时起，我就能从永恒思想神了，但根本不能从永恒思想自然界，因为神脱离时间存在于一切时间中，脱离空间存在于一切空间中。而自然界在时间之内存在于一切时间中，在空间之内存在于一切空间中。自然界及其时空必有一个开始，但神没有，祂不在时空内。所以，自然界来自神，但并非来自永恒，而是与其时空的属性一起存在于时间之中。
280. 第四個經歷:
有一次, 我遠遠看見一排排樹木當中一條林蔭道, 一些年輕人聚成一大群討論著有關智慧的話題。這事發生在靈界。我朝人群走去, 當離他們夠近時, 發現有一個受其他人尊敬的人帶領著他們, 因為他智慧超群。
當看到我時, 他說:"真奇怪！我觀察你往這邊走時, 一時顯現,一時消失; 我一時看得見你, 一時看不見你, 你與我們的生活狀態一定有所不同！"
我被逗笑了, 回答說:"我並非個魔術師, 也非威爾廷努斯(注:掌管四季變化之神), 不過對你們的眼睛而言, 我一時在亮光中, 一時在陰影中。所以在此, 我既是外來者, 也是本地人。"
那智者盯著我說:"你所說的與眾不同, 真是離奇。請告訴我你是誰。"
"我所在的世界是你曾經生活過,如今已離開的地方, "我說:"那裡是屬世或物質世界。我同時也身處你所在的屬靈或心靈世界。於是, 我同時處於屬世(或物質)的狀態和屬靈(或心靈)的狀態。在屬世狀態中, 與地球上的人們相處; 在屬靈狀態中與你們相處。當我處於屬世狀態時, 你就看不見我。當我處於屬靈狀態時, 你就能看見我了。我能如此, 完全來自主的恩賜。
"作為開明人士的你, 當曉得物質世界的人看不見心靈世界的人, 反之亦然。因此, 當我的靈進入我身時, 你見不到我, 然而當我靈脫離我身時, 你便見到我。物質與心靈的分別導致這種現象的發生。"
[2]當他聽完我所說的屬靈與屬世之分別後, 說:"那是什麼分別呢？不就像更純粹的事物與欠純粹的事物之間的分別嗎？屬靈的不就是更純粹的屬世之物嗎？"
"不是那種分別, "我答覆:"屬世永遠無法提純完全,向屬靈接近,以求成為屬靈。彼此的分別就像某些居先層次的事物與隨後層次的事物之間的分別, 它們之間並沒有限定的比率。居先者於隨後者之中,如同原因在結果之中; 隨後者源于居先者,如同結果源自原因。這就是其中之一無法向另一個顯現的理由了。"
對此, 這位智者的反應是:"我深思過這樣的分別, 只是至今毫無頭緒。我真希望能明白這樣的分別。"
"你會的, "我說:"你不僅能明白屬靈與屬世的分別, 甚至會真實地看見。"我接著說:"與你的朋友同在, 你處於屬靈的狀態中; 和我一起, 你處於屬世的狀態中。因為你用屬靈語言與你的人們交談, 是每個靈和天人共用此語言; 與我交談卻用我的本國語言。所有靈或天人與某個人交談時, 都講此人自己的語言:與法國人講法語, 與希臘人講希臘語, 與阿拉伯人講阿拉伯語, 等等。
[3]"為了明白屬靈和屬世語言的區別, 請這樣做:去到你自己的小組中, 跟他們隨便說點什麼。持續講這些話, 記在腦子裡, 回來向我說出這些話。"
他照著做了。他返回來, 口中繼續念叨著那些話, 對著我說出來。這些話十分陌生古怪, 在屬世語言中找不到半點相同之處。這樣的實驗做過多次後, 就可明顯表明, 心靈世界中有一種語言, 與世上語言毫無共同之處。所有人死後就立即擁得這種語言。我也憑著體驗而發覺, 屬靈語言的發音與屬世語言是如此不同, 哪怕屬靈語言再大聲發出, 屬世之人卻是完全聽不到, 屬世語言的發音對屬靈之人也是如此。
[4]之後, 我請那智者及他身邊的群眾回去, 各自在一張紙上寫下一句話, 然後將紙帶過來向我讀。他們這樣做了, 手拿著紙回到我這裡。當他們嘗試讀出來時, 卻做不到, 因為所寫的內容盡是上方有彎曲記號的字母, 每個字母本身表達某種特別含義。(正因此處的字母表達某種意義, 就能明白為何主被稱為"阿爾法"與"俄梅戛"。)
當他們一次次回去書寫,再回來, 就意識到他們所書寫的涉及和包含著無窮的意思, 屬世的書寫無法表達。他們被告知, 這是因為屬靈之人所思考的事情超出屬世人的語言或認知, 那些事無法譯成書寫的或口頭的語言。
[5]然後, 因為一些旁觀者不明白屬靈思想會如此超越屬世思想, 甚至無法言表, 我就跟他們說:"做過實驗吧, 回去你的社區, 想點什麼, 記在腦中, 然後回來在我面前表達出來。"
於是他們回去, 在那裡思想, 記在腦中, 便出來, 當他們準備將所想的表達出來時, 卻發覺做不到。他們無法找到任何屬世的概念來適用於他們純粹的屬靈思想。把思想概念轉變成語言的詞句時, 他們找不到任何詞語來表達它。
藉著數次往返這樣做, 他們自己便確信屬靈思想遠在屬世思想之上, 對屬世人而言不可言傳,溢於言表,無法認知。因為屬靈概念如此超越屬世概念, 他們便聲稱屬靈的概念或思想相對於屬世的, 是概念之上的概念,思想之上的思想, 因而可表達為超越性質的性質, 超越情感的情感。於是, 屬靈思想是屬世思想的起始和源頭。這也表明屬靈智慧是超越智慧的智慧, 物質世界中任何智者都表現不出。
[6]後來, 從天上有聲音說, 仍有更深或更高的智慧, 被稱為屬天智慧。其性質相對于屬靈智慧, 有如屬靈智慧相對于屬世智慧。這些智慧從主的無限聖智, 按天國到天國的次序流入。
關於這點, 那位與我談話者說:"我明白這點, 因為某個屬世概念是眾多屬靈概念的容器, 某個屬靈概念又是眾多屬天概念的容器。這就得出另一結論:分開的事物並非變得越來越簡單, 而是越來越複雜, 因為越來越接近那無限者, 在祂之中的一切皆無限。"
[7]然後, 我對在場的人說:"由以上三個試驗證據可以看出屬靈與屬世之間的區別所在。同樣, 可知道為何屬世人看不見屬靈人, 屬靈人看不見屬世人, 儘管兩者都有完全的人形。因為都有完全的人形, 所以對各方看來, 似乎一方能看見另一方。然而是屬於精神方面的內在事物構成屬靈人的形狀, 並且靈和天人的思想是由屬靈成分構成, 而人只要他們還活在世上, 他們的思想是由屬世成分構成。"
這之後, 從更高一層天上有聲音對在場其中一位說:"上這裡來。"於是他上去了。回來時, 他說天人以前並不知道屬靈與屬世的分別, 因為他們之前從未有機會與同時在兩個世界之人作過這方面的比較, 要知道這些分別, 唯有通過在兩者關係上作比較與檢驗。
[8]在離開他們之前, 我們就此話題進一步談了些內容。我說:"我們之前所說的兩個世界的區別, 根本原因在於你們所處的世界是實質的,是非物質的, 而實質事物則是物質事物的起點。什麼是物質, 不就是將實質聚合一處嗎？因此你們處在起始的水準, 因而是單一; 我們呢, 則處在派生與複合的水準。你們涉及的是具體之物, 我們則是總體之概念。正如總體概念無法進入具體, 物質的屬世之物也無法進入實質的屬靈之物。這就如同一條船索無法穿進一根縫衣針眼, 或者如同一根神經無法被帶進任何一條構成神經的纖維。這就得出答案, 為何屬世人無法揣摩屬靈人的思想, 因而也無法表達這些思想。因此保羅稱他在第三層天所聽到的是'不可說的'。
[9]"此外, 屬靈的思考是指離開時間和空間的思考, 而屬世的思考則牽涉時間和空間。因為屬世思想的一切概念都與時空有關; 然而, 屬靈思想則不是這樣。這是因為心靈世界沒有物質世界那樣的時間和空間, 儘管心靈世界有時空的表面現象。
"人的思考與感受也能體現這樣的分別。因為如此, 你能夠以永恆(也就是上帝創世之前)來思索上帝的本質與全在。因為你離開時間概念來思考上帝的本質, 離開空間的概念來思考上帝的全在, 於是你領會的事物超越了人們屬世的概念。"
[10]關於這點, 我繼續講述自己曾如何思考永恆(也就是創世之前)上帝的本質和全在; 因為我還沒辦法將時空的概念從所思考的(關於上帝的本質和全在)去掉, 於是我為此煩惱, 因為進入我腦中的屬世概念取代了上帝的位置。不過有聲音告訴我:"將時空的概念去掉, 你就會明白。"於是我得著能力, 將這些概念去除, 我就明白了。從那時起, 我就能夠思考永恆之上帝, 而與自然的永恆無半點瓜葛, 因為上帝獨立於時間之外,在一切時間之中, 獨立於空間之外,在一切空間之中。而自然, 則是溶於時間自身,在一切時間之中, 溶於空間自身,在一切空間之中。自然及其時間和空間必有一個開端, 不在時空之中的上帝則不然。因此, 自然來自於上帝, 而非來自于永恆, 不過存在於時間及時空的特性之中。
280. The fourth memorable occurrence. Once from far away I saw paths that lay between rows of trees. Young people were gathered there in discussion groups to talk about topics related to wisdom. (This was in the spiritual world.) I moved in their direction, and when I was close enough I saw that all the others revered one person as most important among them because he excelled the rest in wisdom.
When he saw me, he said, "I was astounded when I saw you coming along on the road, because one moment you would be in view and the next you would disappear. One moment I can see you, and then suddenly I cannot. You are definitely not in the same state of life as we are!"
Tickled by that, I said, "I am not a trickster or a magician, but I do come and go! One moment I am in the light for you, the next moment I am in the shade. In this world I am both a foreigner and a native. "
The sage looked at me and said, "What you are saying is strange and amazing. Tell me who you are. "
"I am in the world you used to live in and have now left," I said, "which is called the earthly or physical world. I am also in the world where you are now, called the spiritual world. As a result I am in an earthly state and a spiritual state at the same time. I am in an earthly state with people on earth and in a spiritual state with all of you. When I am in an earthly state, you do not see me. When I am in a spiritual state, you do see me. This circumstance of mine is a gift from the Lord.
"As an enlightened man, you know that people in the earthly world do not see people in the spiritual world or the reverse. Therefore when I put my spirit in my body, you do not see me, but when I take it out of my body, you do see me. This happens because of the difference between what is spiritual and what is earthly. "
[2] When he heard me mention the difference between what is spiritual and what is earthly, he asked, "What is the difference? Isn't it like the difference between something more pure and something less pure? What is something spiritual then, except something earthly that is just more pure?"
"That is not the nature of the difference," I replied. "No matter how subtle something earthly becomes, it will never get close to becoming something spiritual. The difference is like the difference between something on a prior level and something on a subsequent level - there is no finite ratio between them. The prior level is present in the subsequent level the way a cause is present in an effect; and something on a subsequent level is the result of something on a prior level the way an effect is the result of a cause. This is why the one does not appear to the other. "
The wise person's response to that was, "I have meditated a great deal on this difference, but so far without results. I wish I could learn about the difference!"
I said, "Not only are you going to learn about the difference between what is spiritual and what is earthly; you will even see it for yourself. "
Then I said, "You are in a spiritual state when you are with your people, but in an earthly state when you are with me. You talk to your people in a spiritual language that is shared by every spirit and angel, but you talk to me in my own vernacular. When any spirits or angels communicate with a person, they speak the person's language. With a French person, they speak French. With a Greek, they speak Greek. With an Arab they speak Arabic, and so on.
[3] "To see the difference between spiritual and earthly language, do this. Go over to your own group and say something to them. Hold on to the words, return with them in your memory, and pronounce them to me. "
He did it. He returned to me with the words on his lips and pronounced them. They were totally foreign and bizarre words that do not exist in any language in the physical world. By repeating this experiment several times, it became obvious that all who are in the spiritual world have a spiritual language that has nothing in common with any earthly language, and that we all acquire that spiritual language spontaneously after we die. (On another occasion I learned that the very sound of spiritual language is so different from the sound of earthly language that no matter how loud it is, spiritual sound is completely inaudible to an earthly person, and so is earthly sound to a spiritual person.)
[4] Later on I asked the sage and the people around him to go back to their homes, write some sentence on a piece of paper, and then bring the piece of paper back to me and read it. They did so and came back with the piece of paper in hand; but when they tried to read it they could not, because the writing consisted of nothing but some letters of the alphabet with curved marks over them, each of which meant some aspect of the topic. (Because every letter of the alphabet has a meaning there, you can see why the Lord is called the Alpha and the Omega.)
Again and again they went back home, wrote, and came back, until eventually they realized that their writing involves and contains countless things that no earthly writing could ever express. Someone said that this was the case because a spiritual person thinks things that are beyond an earthly person's words or comprehension; those things cannot be translated into any written or spoken language.
[5] At that point some of the people there were unwilling to comprehend that spiritual thinking goes so far beyond earthly thinking that it is inexpressible in comparison. For this reason I said to them, "Do an experiment. Go to your spiritual community and think about something, keep it fixed in your memory, and come back and express it to me. "
They went home, had a thought, kept it fixed in their memory, and came back. When they tried to express what they had been thinking about, they could not do it. They could not find any idea in earthly thought that fit any idea in their purely spiritual thought; and because the ideas of thought become the words of language, they could find no words to express it.
By going home again and coming back again several times, they became convinced that spiritual ideas are supernatural, inexpressible, indescribable, and incomprehensible to an earthly person. Because spiritual ideas are this transcendent, the people said that spiritual ideas or thoughts, relative to earthly ones, are ideas beyond ideas and thoughts beyond thoughts, and they express qualities beyond qualities and feelings beyond feelings. Therefore spiritual thoughts are the initiation and origin of earthly thoughts. This made it clear that spiritual wisdom is wisdom beyond wisdom - it is inexpressible to any wise person in the physical world.
[6] Then a voice from a higher heaven said that there is a wisdom that is deeper or higher still, which is called heavenly wisdom. Its quality relative to spiritual wisdom is the same as spiritual wisdom's quality relative to earthly wisdom. These wisdoms flow in, heaven by heaven, from the Lord's divine wisdom, which is infinite.
At this the man who had been speaking to me said, "I now see that one earthly idea contains many spiritual ideas, and one spiritual idea contains many heavenly ideas. Another outcome of this is that something that is divided does not become simpler and simpler but instead more and more complex, because it comes closer and closer to the Infinite, in whom all things exist in an infinite way. "
[7] Then I said to the people there, "On the basis of these three experimental proofs, you see the type of difference that exists between what is spiritual and what is earthly. You also see the reason why an earthly person cannot be seen by a spiritual person or a spiritual person by an earthly person, despite the fact that all people of both kinds are in a complete human form. Because they have this form in common, it might seem that an earthly person would be able to see a spiritual person. Yet the factors that make up the form of spiritual people are inner things belonging to the mind; and the mind of spirits and angels is made of things that are spiritual, while the mind of people, as long as they are still alive in the world, is made of things that are earthly. "
After that a voice was heard coming from a higher heaven saying to one of the people there, "Come up here. " That person went up and came back and said that until then the angels had not known the differences between what is spiritual and what is earthly, because no one had had the opportunity to make the comparison by being in both worlds at once and those differences cannot be known without comparison and contrast.
[8] Before we parted company, we discussed this topic some more. I said, "The differences we are discussing come solely from the fact that you who are in the spiritual world are essential and nonphysical. Essences are the roots of physical substances. What is matter but an aggregation of essences? Therefore you are involved in primary structures and individual essences, while we are involved in derivatives of primary structures and composites. You are involved in what is particular; we are involved in what is general. Something general cannot climb onto the same level with something particular; therefore earthly things that are physical cannot climb onto the same level as spiritual things that are formed of essences any more than the cable that moors a ship could pass through the eye of a sewing needle, or any more than a nerve could fit inside one of the fibers that compose it. This then is the reason why a physical person cannot think or say what a spiritual person can. This is why Paul says that the things he heard in the third heaven were inexpressible [2 Corinthians 12:2-4].
[9] "Furthermore, to think in a spiritual way is to think apart from time and space, while to think in an earthly way is to think in terms of time and space. Every idea that comes out of earthly thinking has some aspect of time and space attached to it. This is not true, however, of spiritual ideas. The reason is that the spiritual world does not have time and space in the way the physical world does; instead the spiritual world has apparent time and space.
"Thoughts and perceptions also share this difference. This is why you are capable of thinking about God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, meaning about God before he created the world. You think about God's essence apart from time, and you think about his omnipresence apart from space, and therefore you comprehend things that transcend earthly human ideas. "
[10] At that point I related how I had once been thinking about God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, meaning that I was thinking about God before he created the world; and because I could not remove space and time from the thoughts I was having, I became distressed as I saw an idea of nature starting to replace my idea of God. Then I was told, "Remove the ideas of space and time and you will understand. " I was allowed to remove them, and I understood. From that point on, I have been able to think about God from eternity, but not at all about nature from eternity. God exists in all time independently of time and in all space independently of space. Nature, on the other hand, exists in all time in time itself and in all space in space itself. Nature and its time and space had to have a beginning; God, who exists apart from time and space, did not. Nature therefore comes from God. Nature came into being in time (not from eternity) along with its own time and space.
280. The fourth experience.
I once saw a long way off some walks between avenues of trees, and young men gathered together there in large groups; each of these was a meeting where people were discussing matters relating to wisdom. This took place in the spiritual world. I approached, and on coming near saw one whom the others reverenced as their leader, because he surpassed the rest in wisdom.
On seeing me he said: 'I was surprised when I watched you on your way here and saw you at one time becoming visible to me, at another dropping out of sight; now I saw you, now you vanished. You must surely not be in the same state of life as the people in our country.'
I replied to this with a smile: 'I am no actor, or Vertumnus 1 , but I am by turns sometimes in light and sometimes in shade to your eyes. So here I am both a stranger and native.'
At this the wise man gazed at me and said: 'What you say is unusual and strange. Tell me who you are.'
'I am,' I said, 'in the world where you once were and which you have now left, what is called the natural world. I am also in the world where you now are, what is called the spiritual world. Consequently I am in the natural state and at the same time in the spiritual state, the natural state when with people on earth, the spiritual state when with you. When I am in the natural state, I am invisible to you; when in the spiritual state, I am visible. I have been granted by the Lord the ability to be like this. You as an enlightened man are well aware that a person who belongs to the natural world cannot see one who belongs to the spiritual world, and vice versa. Therefore when I plunge my spirit into the body, you do not see me, but when I release it from the body, you do. This is the result of the distinction between the spiritual and the natural.'
[2] When he heard me mention the distinction between the spiritual and the natural, he said: 'What distinction is that? Is it not like that between what is purer and less pure? So what is the spiritual but a purer kind of the natural?'
'It is not that sort of distinction,' I replied, 'The natural can never become refined enough to approach the spiritual, so that it becomes spiritual. It is the sort of distinction there is between prior and posterior, which have no finite relationship. For the prior is in the posterior, as the cause is in its effect; and the posterior derives from the prior, as the effect derives from its cause. That is why one is not visible to the Other.'
To this the wise man said: 'I have pondered this distinction, but up to now in vain. I only wish I could grasp it.' 'You will,' I said, 'not only grasp the distinction between the spiritual and the natural, you will actually see it.' Then I went on: 'You are in the spiritual state among your people here, but in the natural state with me. For you talk with your people in the spiritual language, which is shared by every spirit and angel, but you talk with me in my native language. Every spirit or angel who talks with a man speaks his own language, French with a Frenchman, Greek with a Greek, Arabic with an Arab, and so on.
[3] 'So in order to be aware of the distinction between the spiritual and the natural as they appear linguistically, do this: go inside to your people, say something there, and memorise the words; then come back keeping them in mind, and pronounce them in my presence.'
He did so and came back to me with those words on his tongue, and uttered them; they were words completely strange and foreign, not to be found in any language of the natural world. Repeating the experiment several times showed clearly that all in the spiritual world have a spiritual language, which has nothing in common with any natural language. Everyone comes of his own accord into possession of that language after his death. I once also discovered by experience that the actual sound of the spiritual language is so different from that of a natural language, that even a loud spiritual sound is inaudible to a natural person, and so is a natural sound to a spiritual person.
[4] Later I asked him and the by-standers to go inside to their own people, and write a sentence on a piece of paper, and then to bring the paper out and read it to me. They did so, and came back with the paper in their hands, but when they went to read it, they could not, since the script was merely composed of some letters of the alphabet with curly lines over them, each one of which conveyed as its meaning a particular matter. Since each letter of the alphabet there conveys a meaning, it is obvious why the Lord is called 'alpha and omega'. When they again and again went in, wrote and came back, they learned that the script entailed and comprehended countless things which no natural script can ever express. They were told that this is because the thoughts of the spiritual man are incomprehensible and inexpressible to the natural man, and they cannot be transferred to another script and another language.
[5] Then, since the by-standers were unwilling to grasp that spiritual thought is so far beyond natural thought, that it is relatively inexpressible, I said to them: 'Carry out an experiment. Go inside to your spiritual community, think of an idea, keep it in mind, and come back and expound it in my presence.'
They went inside, thought and, keeping the thought in mind, came out; and when they went to expound what they had thought, they were unable to do so. For they could not find any idea of natural thought capable of matching an idea of purely spiritual thought, so they could not find any words to express it, for the ideas of thought become words in speech. Thereupon they went back inside, came back, and convinced themselves that spiritual ideas were far above natural ones, inexpressible, unutterable and incomprehensible to the natural man. Because the spiritual ideas excelled the natural ones so much, they said that spiritual ideas or thoughts, compared to natural ones, were ideas of ideas, and thoughts of thoughts, and could therefore express qualities of qualities and affections of affections. It followed that spiritual thoughts were the beginnings and origins of natural thoughts. This also showed that spiritual wisdom is the wisdom of wisdom, and so incapable of expression by anyone, however wise, in the natural world.
[6] Then they were told from the higher heaven that there is a still more inward or higher wisdom, called celestial, which stands in the same relationship to spiritual wisdom as this does to natural wisdom. These forms of wisdom flow in regularly, depending upon which heaven is concerned, from the Lord's Divine wisdom, which is infinite.
At this point the man conversing with me said: 'I see this, because I have perceived that a single natural idea is a container for many spiritual ideas; and also that a single spiritual idea is a container for many celestial ideas. This leads too to this conclusion, that what is divided becomes not more and more simple, but more and more complex, because it approaches closer and closer to the infinite, in which everything is at infinity.'
[7] At the conclusion of this conversation I said to the by-standers: 'You see from these three experimental proofs the nature of the distinction between the spiritual and the natural. Likewise, why the natural man is invisible to the spiritual, and the spiritual man to the natural, although either of them has a complete human form. Because of this form it seems to each as if one could see the other. But it is the interiors, which are mental, which constitute that form, and the mind of spirits and angels is composed of spiritual elements, whereas the mind of men, so long as they live in the world, is composed of natural elements.'
After this a voice was heard from the higher heaven saying to one of the by-standers, 'Come up here.' He went up, and on his return he said that the angels had not previously known the differences between the spiritual and the natural, because they had never before been given the opportunity of making the comparison with a person who was simultaneously in both worlds; and these differences can only become known by making a comparison and examining the relationship.
[8] Before we parted we had another conversation on this subject, and I said that these distinctions arise solely, 'because you in the spiritual world are substantial, not material, and substantial things are the starting points of material things. What is matter but a gathering together of substances? So you are at the level of beginnings and therefore singulars, we, however, are at the level of derivatives and compounds. You are at the level of particulars, we, however, at that of general ideas. Just as general ideas cannot enter into particulars, so natural things, which are material, cannot enter into spiritual things, which are substantial. It is just as a ship's rope cannot enter or be pulled though the eye of a sewing needle, or just as a nerve cannot be introduced into one of the fibres which compose it. This then is the reason why the natural man cannot think the thoughts of the spiritual man, and therefore neither can he express them. So Paul calls what he heard from the third heaven "beyond description."
[9] 'A further point is that thinking spiritually means thinking without using time and space; thinking naturally involves time and space. For every idea of natural thought, but not of spiritual thought, has something of time and space clinging to it. This is because the spiritual world is not in space and time, as is the natural world, though it has the appearance of both of them. Thoughts and perceptions also differ in this respect. For this reason you can think of God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, that is, of God before the creation of the world, because you think about God's essence with no idea of time, and about His omnipresence with no idea of space. Thus you grasp ideas which are far beyond the natural ideas of men.'
[10] I went on to relate how I had once thought about God's essence and omnipresence from eternity, that is, about God before the creation of the world, and because I could not yet banish space and time from the ideas I thought about, I became worried, since the idea of nature entered my mind in place of God. But I was told: 'Banish the ideas of space and time and you will see.' Then I was granted the power to banish them, and I did see. From that time on I have been able to think about God from eternity, without thinking of nature from eternity, because God is non-temporally in all time and non-spatially in all space, but nature is temporally in all time and spatially in all space. Nature with its time and space must inevitably have a beginning, but not so God, who is not in time and space. Therefore nature is from God, not from eternity, but exists in time together with its properties of time and space.
Footnotes:
1. A Roman god believed constantly to change shape.
280. Fourth Memorable Relation:
I once saw at a distance walks between rows of trees, and groups of youths assembled there, forming as many companies discussing matters of wisdom. This was in the spiritual world. I went towards them, and as I drew near I saw one whom the rest venerated as their primate, because he excelled them in wisdom.
When he saw me he said, "I wondered when I saw you approaching, that at one time you came in sight and at another you dropped out of sight, or I could see you and then suddenly I could not. You are certainly not in the same state of life as we are."
Smiling at this I said, "I am not a stage-player, nor a Vertumnus, but I am alternately in your light and in your shade; thus here I am both a foreigner and a native."
At this the wise man gazed at me and said, "Your words are strange and marvelous; tell me who you are."
And I said, "I am in the world in which you once were and from which you came, which is called the natural world; and I am also in the world in which you now are, which is called the spiritual world; consequently, I am at the same time in a natural state and in a spiritual state, in a natural state with men on earth, and in a spiritual state with you; and when I am in a natural state I am not seen by you, but when in a spiritual state, I am seen. That I am such is granted me by the Lord. To you who are enlightened it is known that a man of the natural world does not see a man of the spiritual world, nor the reverse; therefore when I had let my spirit down into my body I was not visible to you, but when I raised it out of the body I was visible. This comes from the distinction between the spiritual and the natural."
[2] When he heard the words, "the distinction between the spiritual and the natural," he said, "What is the distinction? Is it not like that between the purer and the less pure, that is, that the spiritual is simply a purer natural?"
I answered, "Such is not the distinction. By no sort of refinement can the natural so approximate the spiritual as to become the spiritual; for the distinction is like that between the prior and the posterior, between which there is no finite ratio. For the prior is in the posterior as a cause in its effect; and the posterior is from the prior as an effect is from its cause. Therefore the one is not visible to the other."
At this the wise man said, "I have meditated on this distinction, but thus far in vain; I wish I could perceive it." I replied, "You shall both perceive and see the distinction between the spiritual and the natural." And I then said, "You are in a spiritual state when you are with your associates, but in a natural state when with me; for with your associates you speak in a spiritual language, which is common to every spirit and angel; but with me you speak in my native tongue, for every spirit and angel when speaking to a man uses the man's own language; thus, French to a Frenchman, Greek to a Greek, Arabic to an Arabian, and so on.
[3] If therefore you would know the difference between the spiritual and the natural in regard to language, do this: go to your companions and there say something; retain the words, return with them in your memory, and utter them to me."
This he did, and returned to me with the words in his mouth, and uttered them; and they were words wholly strange and foreign, such as are not found in any language in the natural world. By this experiment several times repeated, it became clearly manifest that all in the spiritual world have a spiritual language that has nothing in common with any natural language, and that every man comes of himself into that language after death. I also found on one occasion that the very sound of spiritual language differs so much from the sound of natural language, that even a loud spiritual sound could not be heard at all by a natural man, nor a natural sound by a spiritual man.
[4] After this I asked the spirit and those standing about to go among their companions, and write some sentence upon paper, and then come out to me with the paper and read it. This they did, and returned with the paper in their hands; but when they came to read it, they could not, because the writing consisted solely of some alphabetical letters, with curves over them, each one of which meant something pertaining to the subject. Inasmuch as each letter of the alphabet there stands for some meaning, it is plain why the Lord is called "the Alpha and the Omega." When they had gone in again and again and had written and returned, they found that the writing involved and comprehended innumerable things which no natural writing could possibly express; and they were told that this is so because the spiritual man's thoughts are incomprehensible and ineffable to the natural man, and that they can be put into no other writing or language.
[5] Then as the bystanders had no wish to understand that spiritual thought so far exceeds natural thought as to be comparatively ineffable, I said to them, "Make an experiment; enter your spiritual society and think of some subject, retain it, and return and express it in my presence."
They entered, thought of a subject, retained it, and came out; and when they tried to give expression to it they could not; for they could find no idea of natural thought adequate to any idea of purely spiritual thought, and thus no words to express it; for the ideas of thought become words in speech. Afterwards they entered again, and returned; and became convinced that spiritual ideas are supernatural, inexpressible, ineffable and incomprehensible to a natural man; and they said that being so supereminent, spiritual ideas or thoughts in comparison with natural are ideas of ideas and thoughts of thoughts, and therefore by them the qualities of qualities and the affections of affections are expressed; consequently that spiritual thoughts are the beginnings and origins of natural thoughts; and from this it is evident that spiritual wisdom is the wisdom of wisdom, and is therefore inexpressible to any wise man in the natural world.
[6] Then it was said from the higher heaven that there is a still more interior or higher wisdom which is called celestial, the relation of which to spiritual wisdom is like the relation of this to natural wisdom, and that these inflow in order according to the heavens from the Lord's Divine wisdom, which is infinite.
Thereupon, the man speaking with me said, "This I see, because I perceive it, that one natural idea is the containant of many spiritual ideas; also that one spiritual idea is the containant of many celestial ideas. From this it follows as a consequence, that what is divided does not become more and more simple, but more and more manifold, because it approaches nearer and nearer to the infinite, which contains all things infinitely."
[7] After all this had taken place, I said to the bystanders, "From these three experimental proofs you see what kind of distinction there is between the spiritual and the natural, and also the reason why a natural man is not visible to a spiritual man, or a spiritual man to a natural man, although both are in a complete human form, and from that form it seems to each as though he might see the other. But the interiors which belong to the mind are what constitute that form; and the minds of spirits and angels are formed out of spiritual things, while the minds of men so long as they live in the world, are formed out of natural things."
After this a voice was heard from the higher heaven, saying to one who stood by, "Come up hither." He went up, and returned and said that the angels had not before known the differences between the spiritual and the natural, because the means of comparison had not previously been furnished in a man who was in both worlds at once, and without comparison and relation those differences are unknowable.
[8] Before we separated we talked again about this matter, and I said, "These distinctions come solely from this, that you in the spiritual world are substantial but not material, and substantial things are the beginnings of material things. What is matter but an aggregation of substances? You therefore are in principles and thus in the least particles, while we are in derivatives and compounds; you are in particulars, while we are in generals; and as generals cannot enter into particulars, so neither can natural things, which are material, enter into spiritual things, which are substantial; just as a ship's cable cannot enter or be drawn through the eye of a sewing needle, or a nerve cannot be drawn into one of the fibers of which it is composed. This then is why the natural man cannot think the thoughts of the spiritual man, and therefore cannot utter them. So what Paul heard from the third heaven he called ineffable.
[9] Add to this, that to think spiritually is to think apart from time and space, while to think naturally is to think in accord with time and space; for to every idea of natural thought there adheres something from time and space; but it is not so with any spiritual idea, and for the reason that the spiritual world is not in space and time, as the natural world is, but is in the appearance of these two. In the same way do the thoughts and perceptions of the two worlds differ. For this reason you are able to think of the essence and omnipotence of God from eternity, that is, to think of God before the creation of the world, because you think of the essence of God apart from time and of His omnipotence apart from space; and thus you can comprehend such things as transcend man's natural ideas."
[10] I then told them that I had once thought about the essence and omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, about God before the creation of the world; and because I was not then able to separate spaces and times from the ideas of my thought I became anxious, since the idea of nature in place of God pressed in. But it was said to me, "Separate the ideas of space and time and you will see;" and I was permitted to separate them, and I saw; and since then I have been able to think of God from eternity, but by no means of nature from eternity, because God is in all time apart from time, and in all space apart from space; but nature in all time is in time, and in all space is in space; and nature with its time and space must needs have beginning; but not God who is apart from time and space. Therefore nature is not God from eternity, but is from God in time, in connection with its own time and space.
280. The fourth experience. In the spiritual world I once saw in the distance walks bordered by trees, and young men gathered there in groups, each group conversing on wisdom in some of its aspects. I went towards them, and as I drew near, I noticed one to whom the others were showing deference as their leader, because of his superior wisdom. On seeing me he said: "I was surprised when I saw you approaching, because at one time you came into sight, at another you went out of sight, now appearing, and now suddenly disappearing; surely you are not in the same state of life as the rest of us." With a smile I replied: "I am not a play-actor, not yet a Vertumnus but I am by turns now in your light, and now in your shade; thus I am both foreigner and native here." Upon this the wise youth looked at me and said: "You say strange and wonderful things; tell me who you are." I replied: "I am in the world in which you once were, and from which you have departed, called the natural world; and I am also in the world in which you now are, called the spiritual world. Consequently I am in a natural state, and at the same time in a spiritual state: in a natural state with men on earth, and in a spiritual state with you. When I am in a natural state I am not seen by you; but when in a spiritual state, I am. It was granted me by the Lord to be so. You know, my enlightened friend, that a man of the natural world does not see a man of the spiritual world, and vice-versa. When, therefore, I let my spirit enter the body, I am not seen by you; but when I let it go from the body, I am seen; and this results from the difference between the spiritual and the natural."
[2] When he heard me mention the difference between the spiritual and the natural, he said: "What is the difference? Is it not like that between what is more and what is less pure? Thus, what is the spiritual but a purer degree of the natural?" I replied, "Such is not the difference. The natural can never by any sublimation become the spiritual. The difference is like that between prior and posterior, and between these there is no finite ratio. For the prior is in the posterior, as a cause is in its effect; and the posterior is from the prior, as an effect is from its cause. The one, therefore, is not apparent to the other." Thereupon the wise youth replied: "I have given consideration to this difference, but so far to no purpose. I wish I could perceive it." So I said: "Not only shall you perceive the distinction between the spiritual and the natural, but you shall also see it."
I then proceeded as follows: "You are in a spiritual state when with your companions, but in a natural state when with me. You converse with them in the spiritual language, which is common to every spirit and angel, but you converse with me in my native tongue; for every spirit and angel, when conversing with a man, uses that man's own language, consequently French with a Frenchman, Greek with a Greek, Arabic with an Arab, and so on.
[3] That you may know the difference between spiritual and natural language, go and say something to your friends. Then, retaining the words in your memory, return and repeat them to me." He did so, and returning with the words on his lips, he uttered them; and the words proved to be utterly strange and foreign, such as are not found in any language in the natural world. From this experiment, several times repeated, it became clear that all in the spiritual world speak a spiritual language, which has nothing in common with any natural language; and that every man comes of himself into that language after death. I once proved also that the very sound of spiritual language differs so much from that of natural language that even a loud spiritual sound is quite inaudible to a natural man, and a natural sound to a spiritual man.
[4] Afterwards I asked him and some bystanders to withdraw to their friends, write a sentence on a piece of paper, and then return to me with the paper and read it. They did so, and returned with the paper in their hands; but when they proceeded to read it, they could not, for the writing consisted only of certain alphabetic characters, with little curves above, each of which had some particular meaning. Since each letter of the alphabet there has a particular meaning, it is evident why the Lord is called the Alpha and the Omega. After repeatedly withdrawing, writing on and returning to read what they had written, they found that their writing involved and comprehended innumerable things which natural language could in no wise express; and they were told that this was because the spiritual man's thoughts are incomprehensible and ineffable to the natural man, and cannot be expressed in any other writing or language.
[5] Thereupon, as the bystanders would not see for themselves how spiritual thought so far transcends natural thought that it can only be expressed relatively, I said to them: "Try this experiment. Withdraw to your spiritual society, think on some subject, and then, retaining your thoughts, return and express them to me." They withdrew, thought upon a subject, retained their thoughts, and returned; but when they proceeded to express what they had thought on the matter, they could not, for they found that idea of natural thought adequate to express any idea of purely spiritual thought. They were thus unable to find words to express it for ideas of thought become words in speech. After repeating this experiment frequently, they became convinced that spiritual ideas are supernatural, inexpressible, ineffable, and incomprehensible to the natural man. Because these are so transcendent they said that spiritual ideas or thoughts were, relatively to natural ideas, ideas of ideas, and thoughts of thoughts, and therefore that they expressed qualities of qualities, and affections of affections; and consequently that spiritual thoughts were the beginnings and origins of natural thoughts. Thus it was evident that spiritual wisdom was the wisdom of wisdom, and therefore inexpressible by any man, however wise, in the natural world.
[6] It was then declared from the higher heaven, that there is a wisdom still more interior or higher, called celestial, bearing the same relation to spiritual wisdom as spiritual wisdom bears to natural; and that celestial, spiritual, and natural wisdom proceed by influx according to the order of the heavens, from the Lord's Divine Wisdom, which is infinite. Upon this the man who was conversing with me said: "I see this, because I perceive that one natural idea, contains many spiritual ideas, and one spiritual idea contains many celestial ideas. It follows from this that, what is analyzed does not become more and more simple, but more and more complex, because it approaches nearer and nearer to the infinite, which contains all things infinitely."
[7] These explanations being completed. I said to the bystanders: "From these three experiments you see the nature of the difference between spiritual and natural; and also the reason why the natural man is invisible to the spiritual man, and the spiritual to the natural, although they are both in a perfect human form. Because of this form it would appear that each should see the other; but interior things, belonging to the mind, constitute that form, and the minds of spirits and angels are formed of spiritual things, while the minds of men, so long as they live in the world, are formed of natural things." After this a voice was heard from the higher heaven saying to one of those standing by, "Come up hither." He went up, and on his return, he said that the angels had not previously known the differences between the spiritual and the natural, because never before had they been given the opportunity to compare the two in one man who was in both worlds at the same time, and without such comparison those differences could not be known.
[8] Before we separated we had some further conversation on this subject, and I said: "Those differences exist solely because you in the spiritual world are substantial, and not material; and material things have their beginnings in substantial things, for matter is but the aggregation of substances. Accordingly, you are in a world of origins and elementaries, but we in a world of derivatives and composites. You are in particulars, but we in generals; and as generals cannot enter into particulars, so neither can natural things, which are material, enter into spiritual things, which are substantial, any more than a ship's cable can enter or be drawn through the eye of a sewing needle, or a nerve enter one of the fibres of which it is composed. This, then, is the reason why the natural man cannot conceive the thoughts which the spiritual man thinks, and consequently cannot express them in words; what, therefore, Paul heard from the third heaven he called ineffable.
[9] Moreover, to think spiritually is to think apart from time and space, but to think naturally is to think in time and space, for to every idea of natural thought there adheres something of time and space, but not to any idea of spiritual thought. This is because the spiritual world is not in space and time, as the natural world is, but only in their semblance. In this respect also spiritual thoughts and perceptions differ from natural. For this reason you can think of the Essence and the Omnipresence of God as existing from eternity, that is, you can think of God as existing before the creation of the world, because you think of the Essence of God apart from time, and of His Omnipresence apart from space; and thus you comprehend things which transcend the natural ideas of man."
[10] I then related to them that once I was thinking about the Essence and Omnipresence of God from eternity, that is, concerning God before the creation of the world. As I could not yet remove space and time from the ideas of my thought, I became anxious, because there entered my mind the idea of nature instead of God; but I was told to remove the ideas of space and time, and I should see. I was enabled to remove them, and I saw; and from that time I have been able to think of God as existing from eternity but not at all of nature as existing from eternity, because God is in all time apart from time, and in all space apart from space; whereas nature in all time is in time, and in all space is in space. Thus nature, with her time and space, must have had a beginning, but not, so God, who is apart from time and space; therefore nature is from God, not from eternity, but in time, together with her time and space.
280. QUARTUM MEMORABILE.
Quondam e longinquo vidi Ambulacra inter ordines arborum, et ibi Juvenes congregatos in turmis, totidem Consortia de rebus sapientiae confabulantium; hoc erat in Mundo spirituali: accessi, et cum prope eram, vidi unum, quem reliqui venerabantur ut suum Primatem, propter causam, quia prae reliquis sapientia excelluit; hic cum me vidit, dixit, miratus sum, cum vidi te in via accedentem, quod nunc incideris in conspectum meum, nunc excideris ex illo, seu nunc mihi visus sis, et subito non visus; certe non es in statu vitae nostratium; ad haec subridens respondi, non sum ludio, nec vertumnus, sed sum alternus, nunc in luce vestra, et nunc in umbra vestra, ita hic peregrinus et quoque indigena; ad haec Sapiens ille aspexit me, et dixit, loqueris aliena et mira; dic mihi quis es, et dixi, sum in Mundo, in quo vos fuistis, et e quo vos exivistis, qui vocatur MUNDUS NATURALIS, et quoque sum in Mundo, in quo vos estis, qui vocatur MUNDUS SPIRITUALIS; inde est quod sim in statu Naturali, et simul in statu Spirituali; in statu Naturali cum hominibus telluris, et in statu Spirituali cum vobis, et quando in Statu naturali sum, non videor vobis, at quando in Statu spirituali, videor: quod talis sim, datum est a Domino: Tibi, Vir illustrate, notum est, quod homo Mundi naturalis non videat hominem Mundi spiritualis, nec vicissim, quare cum immisi Spiritum meum in Corpus, non tibi visus sum, sed cum emisi illum e corpore, visus sum: et hoc existit ex discrimine inter Spirituale et Naturale.
[2] Ille cum audivit discrimen inter Spirituale et Naturale, dixit, quid discrimen; estne id sicut inter purum magis et minus, ita quid Spirituale nisi purius Naturale; et respondi, discrimen non tale est; Naturale nusquam per subtilisationem potest approximare ad Spirituale ita ut fiat illud, est enim discrimen quale inter prius et posterius, inter quae ratio finita non datur; est enim prius in posteriori, sicut causa in suo effectu, ac posterius est ex priori, ut effectus ex sua causa; inde est, quod unum non appareat alteri. Ad haec dixit ille Sapiens, meditatus sum de hoc discrimine, sed huc usque in vanum, utinam id percepero; et dixi, non modo discrimen inter Spirituale et Naturale percipies, sed etiam videbis; et tunc dixi haec, Tu es in Statu spirituali dum apud tuos, at in Statu naturali apud me; loqueris enim cum tuis Lingua spirituali, quae est communis omni spiritui et angelo, at cum me loqueris Lingua mea vernacula, nam omnis Spiritus et Angelus loquens cum homine loquitur ejus Linguam propriam, ita cum Gallo gallicam, cum Graeco graecam, cum Arabe arabicam, et sic porro.
[3] Ut itaque scias discrimen inter Spirituale et Naturale quoad Linguas, fac ita; intra ad tuos, et loquere aliquid ibi, ac retine voces, et cum his in memoria redi, et coram me enuntia illas; ac fecit ita, et rediit ad me cum vocibus illis in ore, et effatus est illas, et erant voces prorsus alienae et peregrinae, quae non dantur in aliqua Lingua Mundi naturalis; per hanc experientiam aliquoties iteratam clare patuit, quod omnibus in Mundo spirituali sit Lingua spiritualis, quae nihil commune cum aliqua Lingua naturali obtinet, et quod omnis homo in illam Linguam post obitum ex se veniat: semel etiam expertus sum, quod ipse Sonus Linguae spiritualis a Sono Linguae naturalis differret in tantum, ut Sonus spiritualis etiam altus ne hilum audiretur ab homine naturali, nec Sonus naturalis ab homine spirituali.
[4] Postea rogavi illum et circumstantes, ut intrarent ad suos, et scriberent aliquam sententiam super Charta, et cum charta illa exirent ad me, et legerent; fecerunt ita, et redierunt cum Charta in manu, at cum legerent, non potuerunt, quoniam Scriptura illa constabat modo ex aliquibus Literis alphabeticis cum strophis supra, quarum unaquaevis aliquem sensum rei significabat: quia unaquaevis Litera in Alphabeto significat ibi aliquem Sensum, patet unde est, quod Dominus dicatur Alpha et Omega: cum illi iterum et iterum intrarent, scriberent, et redirent, comperti sunt, quod Scriptura illa involveret et comprehenderet innumera, quae nusquam aliqua Scriptura naturalis posset exprimere; et dictum est, quod hoc sit, quia spiritualis homo cogitat incomprehensibilia et ineffabilia Naturali homini, et quod haec in aliam Scripturam et in aliam Linguam inferri nequeant.
[5] Tunc quia adstantes non voluerunt comprehendere, quod Spiritualis cogitatio in tantum excederet cogitationem naturalem, ut sit respective ineffabilis, dixi illis, facite experientiam, intrate in Societatem vestram spiritualem, et cogitate aliquam rem, ac retinete illam, et redite, et coram me expromite illam; ac intraverunt, cogitaverunt, retinuerunt, exiverunt, et cum exprimerent rem cogitatam, non potuerunt, non enim invenerunt ullam ideam cogitationis naturalis adaequatam alicui ideae cogitationis pure spiritualis, ita non aliquas voces exprimentes illam, nam ideae cogitationis fiunt voces loquelae; et postea reintrabant, et redibant, et confirmabant se, quod ideae spirituales essent supranaturales, inexpressibiles, ineffabiles, et incomprehensibiles Naturali homini; et quia tam supereminentes sunt, dicebant, quod Spirituales ideae seu cogitationes respective ad Naturales essent ideae idearum, et cogitationes cogitationum, et quod ideo per illas exprimerentur qualitates qualitatum, et affectiones affectionum; consequenter quod Cogitationes spirituales essent initia ac origines cogitationum naturalium: inde etiam patuit, quod Sapientia spiritualis esset Sapientia sapientiae, ita inexpressibilis alicui Sapienti in Naturali Mundo.
[6] Tunc dictum est e Coelo superiori, quod adhuc sit Sapientia interior seu superior, quae vocatur Coelestis, cujus respectus ad Sapientiam spiritualem, similis est respectui hujus ad naturalem, et quod hae in ordine secundum Coelos influant ex Divina Domini Sapientia, quae est Infinita. Ad haec dixit Vir loquens mecum, hoc video, quia percepi, quod una idea naturalis sit continens plurium idearum spiritualium; et quoque quod una idea spiritualis sit continens plurium idearum coelestium; ex his fit etiam hoc consequens, quod divisum non fiat plus et plus simplex, sed plus et plus multiplex, quia propius et propius accedit ad Infinitum, in quo infinite omnia sunt.
[7] His peractis dixi ad adstantes; ex his tribus experientiae documentis videtis quale est discrimen inter Spirituale et Naturale, et quoque causam, cur Naturalis homo non apparet Spirituali, et Spiritualis homo non Naturali, tametsi uterque in perfecta forma humana est, et ex hac forma videtur ipsi sicut unus videret alterum, sed sunt interiora, quae Mentis sunt, quae faciunt illam formam, ac Mens spirituum et Angelorum formata est ex spiritualibus, et Mens hominum, quamdiu in Mundo vivunt, ex naturalibus. Post haec, audita est vox e superiori Coelo ad quendam, qui adstitit, dicens, ascende huc, et ascendit, et rediit, et dixit, quod Angeli non prius noverint differentias inter Spirituale et Naturale, propter causam, quia non prius apud quendam hominem, qui in utroque Mundo simul fuit, aliqua copia collationis data est, et differentiae illae absque collatione et relatione non noscibiles sunt.
[8] Antequam secessimus, iterum loquuti sumus de hac re, et dixi, quod discrimina illa non aliunde existant, quam quia vos in Mundo spirituali, estis substantiales, et non materiales, ac substantialia sunt initia materialium; quid materia nisi congregatio substantiarum; vos itaque estis in principiis, et sic in singularibus, nos autem in principiatis et compositis; vos estis in particularibus, nos autem in communibus, et sicut communia non possunt intrare in particularia, ita nec possunt naturalia, quae sunt materialia, intrare in spiritualia, quae sunt substantialia; prorsus sicut funis nauticus non potest intrare seu traduci per foramen acus netorii, aut sicut nervus non potest induci in unam ex fibris, ex quibus ille est. Haec nunc causa est, quod Naturalis homo non possit cogitare illa quae Spiritualis homo, et inde nec loqui illa; quare Paulus illa quae audivit e Tertio Coelo vocat ineffabilia.
[9] Accedit, quod Spiritualiter cogitare sit absque tempore et spatio cogitare, et quod Naturaliter sit cum tempore et spatio; adhaeret enim omni ideae cogitationis naturalis aliquid e tempore et spatio, non autem alicui ideae spirituali; causa est, quia Spiritualis Mundus non est in spatio et tempore, sicut Mundus naturalis, sed est in duorum istorum apparentia; in hoc differunt etiam cogitationes et perceptiones: quapropter vos potestis cogitare de Dei Essentia et Omnipraesentia ab aeterno, hoc est, de Deo ante creationem Mundi, quia cogitatis de Dei Essentia absque tempore, et de Ipsius Omnipraesentia absque spatio, et sic comprehenditis talia, quae ideas naturales hominis transcendunt:
[10] et tunc narravi, quod semel cogitaverim de Dei Essentia et Omnipraesentia ab aeterno, hoc est, de Deo ante Creationem Mundi, et quod quia nondum potui removere spatia et tempora ab ideis cogitationis meae, anxius factus sum, quoniam intravit idea Naturae pro Deo; sed dictum mihi est, remove ideas spatii et temporis, et videbis; et datum est removere, et vidi; et ab illo tempore potui cogitare Deum ab aeterno, et prorsus non Naturam ab aeterno, quia Deus in omni tempore est absque tempore, et in omni spatio est absque spatio, Natura autem in omni tempore est in tempore, et in omni spatio est in spatio, et Natura cum suo tempore et spatio non potuit non inchoare, non autem Deus, qui est absque tempore et spatio; quare Natura a Deo est, non ab aeterno, sed in tempore una cum suo tempore et spatio.