333.记事二：
过了一段时间，我又听到低地传来和以前一样的喊声：“多么有学问啊，多么有智慧啊！”我环顾四周，想看看会出现什么天使，发现他们所来的天堂，就在喊“多么有学问”之人的正上方。当我向他们谈及这喧哗声时，他们说：“这些‘有学问’的人只会争辩事物是否存在，而鲜少思考它本就如此。因此，他们就像吹过去的风，或没有木芯的树皮、没有核仁的杏壳、没有果肉的果皮。因为他们的心智已丧失内在判断，仅与身体感觉相连。所以，要是感觉本身不能作出判断，他们就无法得出任何结论。总之，他们就是感觉生物，我们把这种人叫做逻辑贩子。之所以如此称谓他们，是因为他们从未得出过任何结论，只会拿起他们所听到的东西，然后争辩它是否存在，不断出言赞成和反对。他们最喜欢攻击真理，将其置于辩论中，从而把它们撕成碎片。这些人就是那些自认学识渊博、全世界无人可比之人。”
听到这里，我请求天使带我下去见识一下。于是，他们就把我带进一个大山洞。我们拾级而下，来到低地，然后循着“多么有学问”的喊声走下去。只见这里有数百人站在一个地方踩踏地面。我对此感到万分惊讶，就问：“他们为何那样站着踩踏地面？”我补充说：“这样下去，恐怕他们会在地上踩出一个洞来。”听到这话，天使笑了，说：“他们看似站在一个地方，是因为他们从不思考事物本就如此，只思想它是否存在，并将其演变成论战。由于思维不向前发展，所以他们看似原地踏步。”不过，当我靠近人群时，发现他们并不怎么难看，而且穿着得体。天使说：“他们在自己的光里是这样，要是有天堂之光流入，他们的脸和衣服就都变了。”这一幕的确出现了，他们的脸变得黑不溜秋，衣服就像黑毛布。但天堂之光一关闭，他们就恢复了原先的样子。稍后，我与其中一些人对话说：“我听到你们周围的人群喊着说：‘多么有学问啊！’所以，若可以的话，我想进去和你们谈谈最深奥的学问。”对此，他们回答说：“随便你谈什么，我们包你满意。”
于是，我问他们：“什么样的宗教会带来人的救赎？”他们回答说：“我们得将这个问题分解成若干个问题，只有先解决了这些问题，才能给予答复。讨论的顺序是：
1）宗教是否重要；
2）有没有救赎这回事；
3）一种宗教是否比另一种更有效；
4）天堂和地狱是否存在；
5）死后是否有永生；除此之外还有很多其它问题。”
于是，我问了第一个问题，即宗教是否重要。他们开始用大量论据讨论有没有宗教这回事，以及它是否重要。然后，我请他们将这个问题提交给会众，他们照做了。得到的一致答复是，这个命题需要大量调查研究，所以傍晚前不可能完成。我问：“你们一年内能完成吗？”其中一个人说，一百年也不可能完成。“这么说，在此期间你们没有任何宗教喽”，我说。“你不也得像我们一样，先证明宗教是否存在，再证明被如此称谓的东西是否重要吗？若宗教存在，那也是为了智者；若不存在，就只是为了老百姓。众所周知，宗教被视为一种约束，但问题是，它是约束谁的？若只约束老百姓，那它真不重要，但如果它也约束智者，那就是重要的。”
听到这里，我对他们说：“你们根本没有什么学问，因为你们只会推测事物是否存在，而不是想办法解决它。若非确切地知道某个事物，并朝它向前推进，就像人一步步发展，逐渐获得智慧那样，谁能变得有学问？否则，你们甚至连指甲尖都触碰不到真理，而是将它们从你们的视野中驱逐得越来越远。纯粹推理事物是否存在，好比争论一顶从未戴过的帽子，或一双从未穿过的鞋子。除了你们不知道事物是否存在；甚至有无救赎这回事；死后的生命是否永恒；一种宗教是否比另一种更有效；天堂与地狱是否存在外，还能有什么结果？只要你们在第一步陷入僵局，并在那里拍沙子，而不是把一只脚放在另一只脚前取得进展，就不可能对这些问题形成任何想法。要当心，免得你们的心智就这样站在判断的门外，内在却逐渐僵硬，变成盐柱，使你们沦为罗得妻子的朋友。”
我边说边离开，他们怒不可遏地朝我扔石头。这时，在我看来，他们就像石雕，其中毫无人类的理性。我向天使打听这些人的命运，天使说：“他们会沉入深渊，进入旷野，在那里被迫背负货物。由于说不出理性的话来，所以他们东拉西扯，胡言乱语，从远处看，就像负重的驴子。”
333. 第二個經歷:
過了一陣子, 我又聽到下面傳來與之前相同的呼喊聲:"多有學問, 多有學問啊！"於是我四周觀看誰在那裡呼喊。讓我驚訝的是, 有天國的天人正好在那些叫嚷著"多有學問啊"之人的上方。
於是我與天人就這些情形交談起來。他們說:"這就是那類學者, 只會爭論某事物存在與否, 卻難得達成結論。因此, 他們就像吹來飄去的風, 或者像包裹著沒有樹心的樹皮, 又像內無果仁的杏仁殼, 像沒有果肉可包裹的果皮。因為他們的思想缺乏內在的判斷力, 僅僅與肉體的感官相連。因此, 倘若感官本身無法識別一些事情, 他們就無法得出結論。簡言之, 他們是感官的產物, 我們稱他們為'邏輯販子'。這樣稱呼他們, 在於他們從未達成任何結論, 只是撿起任何他們聽到的來討論並爭辯是否存在, 且習慣於持相反的立場。他們樂於攻擊真實存在的事情, 使它們成為辯論的主題並將其撕成碎片。這就是那些自認為比世上任何人都有學問之人。"
[2]聽到這些, 我向天人請求, 帶我下到這些人那裡看看。於是, 他們帶我下到一處窪地, 在那有臺階通向更低的地面。我走下去, 並順著"多有學問啊"的叫嚷聲而去。
在那裡, 我們遇到幾百號人站在一處,腳踩踏地面。我覺得奇怪, 問道:"他們為何站在一處腳踩地面？這樣下去, 會把地面踩成坑。"
天人笑了笑, 說:"他們看起來站在一處, 是因為他們從不認為任何事物存在, 只會去思考它們是否存在, 並為此爭論。因為他們的思想無法超越這個階段, 他們看起來只是原地踏步, 在地上一點磨來磨去, 毫不向前。"
天人繼續說:"那些人從物質界來到這個世界, 聽說來到另一個世界, 就在許多地方聚集成群。他們打聽天國與地獄在哪裡, 以及上帝在哪裡。不過, 當他們領受這方面的教導後, 依然開始去分析,辯論和鬥爭:上帝是否存在？他們這樣做, 是因為如今在物質界有大量的人們是自然崇拜者, 當出現宗教信仰的話題時, 自然崇拜者們就會就此與其他人爭辯。爭辯與討論的結果極少以信仰上帝存在為結局。自然崇拜者們後來與越來越多的惡人聯合, 因為除非源自上帝, 無人能發自善願而行出任何良善。"
[3]在這之後, 我被帶到他們之中。在我看來, 他們長得討人喜歡, 著裝講究。天人說:"他們看起來如此, 在於身處自己的光照下, 倘若天國之光射下, 他們的長相與著裝就會改變。"
接著就發生了, 他們的臉變得黝黑, 身上像是穿著黑色的粗布衣裳。不過, 當來自天國的光照關閉時, 他們又恢復先前的美態。
過了一會, 我與這人群中的幾位交談起來, 說:"我聽到你們當中有人叫喊'多有學問啊！'因此, 如果許可, 我盼望能參加你們關於至深奧學問的討論。"
他們回答道:"說出任何你想講的, 我們定會讓你滿意。"
於是我問:"要怎麼樣的信仰才會影響到人們的得救？"
他們說:"我們會將這個問題分成幾步來說, 除非解決這幾步, 我們無法給出答覆。這幾步的討論順序如下:(1)信仰是否如此重要？(2)拯救是否存在？(3)一個信仰是否就比另一個更有效？(4)天國與地獄是否存在？⑸死後是否有永恆的生命？還有一些類似的問題。"
於是, 我詢問第一個問題的答案:信仰是否如此重要？他們開始就這個問題展開大量的論證。我請求將此問題求助於會眾, 他們照此做了。得到一致的回復便是:這個論點需要大量的調研, 天黑前無法得出結論。
於是我問:"一年之內你們能得出結論嗎？"
其中一些人回答說, 一百年都無法結束。
我說:"在此同時, 你們沒有任何信仰, 又因為拯救取決於信仰, 你們沒有關於拯救的任何概念, 也不相信什麼拯救, 或者對此有任何希望。"
他們有人回答:"難道你不是像我們這樣, 先證明信仰是否存在, 何為信仰, 是否重要？倘若存在, 也當適用于智者; 如果不是, 那就只能適合於普通人。眾所周知, 宗教信仰被稱為一種約束, 但問題在於:'對誰的約束？'如果只是針對普通人, 就什麼也不是了; 若對智者也是約束, 就是那麼回事了。"
[4]聽完這些話, 我說:"你們根本不是有學問, 因為除了某事物是否存在,並為這個是與否不停爭論, 你們就沒有任何其它想法。若不知道某些事物為肯定, 並進而得出肯定的結論, 正如人一級一級上臺階, 逐步進入智慧之中, 若非如此, 怎麼稱得上有學問？要不然, 你們還未等你用指尖觸摸到真理, 就把真理從你們的視線驅離得遠遠的。因此, 只知道爭論事物是否存在, 就如同爭論一頂你們從未戴過的帽子, 或者一雙你從未穿過的鞋子。以下的爭辯, 帶來的結果, 除了無知, 還有什麼呢？例如, 某些事物是否存在？某事物是否只是個概念？拯救是否存在？或者是否有死後的永生？某信仰是否優於其它信仰？天國與地獄是否存在？只要你卡在第一步, 陷進沙子裡, 就無法抬起腳繼續前行, 也就無法得到關於這些物件的任何見解。"
說完這些, 我離開他們。他們被激怒了, 在身後向我扔石頭。那時, 對我來說, 他們看起來就像無人性的雕像。我向天人詢問他們最終的結局將會如何。天人回答說:"他們中間那些最底層之人會被投進深淵, 在那裡會找到一片沙漠地, 並被強迫去扛物。因為他們毫無理性, 只會喋喋不休地胡言亂語。從遠處看他們, 就是正搬運貨物的驢。"
333. The second memorable occurrence. After a time I heard again the voices from the lower earth that I had heard before: They are so learned! They are so learned!"
I looked around to see who was beside me, and to my surprise there were angels from the heaven that was directly above the people who were shouting, "They are so learned. "
I talked to the angels about the shouting. They said, "These are the type of scholars who argue only about whether something exists or not. They rarely think, it does exist. Therefore they are like the wind that blows and goes on by; they are like bark around a tree with nothing inside it; they are like almond shells without almonds; they are like skins empty of fruit. Their minds lack inner judgment and are connected only to their bodily senses. If their senses cannot discern something, they are unable to come to a conclusion about it. They are exclusively oriented to their senses. We call them debaters because they never come to a conclusion. Whatever they hear about, they take up for discussion and dispute whether it exists. They always take a contrary position. The thing they love the most is to attack things that are true and tear those things apart by making them the subject of debate. These are people who believe they are more learned than anyone else in the world. "
[2] Once I had heard that, I asked the angels to take me to them. The angels brought me to a little valley that had steps going down toward the lower earth. We went down the steps and followed the voices that were shouting, "They are so learned. "
We came upon several hundred people standing in one spot treading the ground. Amazed by this I asked, "Why are they standing and treading the ground with their feet like this?" I added, "If they keep it up they could dig a hole in the ground with their feet. "
The angels smiled at this and said, "They seem to be standing in one place like this, because they never think that anything exists; they think only about whether it exists, and argue over it. Since their thinking never advances beyond this stage, they look as if they are treading and wearing down one patch of ground without moving forward. "
The angels also said, "When people arrive in this world from the physical one and hear that they are in another world, they gather together in many places to form groups. They ask where heaven and hell are, and also where God is. After they have been taught, they start arguing, disputing, and fighting about whether God exists. This is a result of the great number of materialists in the physical world today. When the topic of religion comes up, materialists start to debate about it with one another and with other groups. The ensuing proposition and debate rarely results in an affirmation of the faith that God exists. Materialists associate more and more with the evil, because only from God can one do something good with a love for what is good. "
[3] Then I was taken down into their gathering. To my surprise they looked to me like people with pleasant faces and good-looking clothes. "They look this way in their own light," the angels said, "but if light from heaven flows in, their faces and clothes change. "
Then that happened. They looked as if they had dark faces and clothes made out of black sacks. Then the light from heaven was taken away and they looked the way they had before.
Soon I started speaking with some people from the group. I said, "I heard shouting from the crowd around you - 'They are so learned!' Might I be allowed, therefore, to enter a discussion with you on points that are of the utmost scholarly importance?"
"Say whatever you wish," they replied, "and we will give it adequate attention. "
I asked, "What does a religion need to be like in order to save people?"
They said, "We are going to divide this question into a number of subquestions. Before we have come to conclusions on these we will not be able to give a reply to your question. The points for discussion will be the following. (1) Is religion anything? (2) Does salvation exist or not? (3) Is one religion more effective than another? (4) Do heaven and hell exist? (5) Does everlasting life after death exist? And more as well. "
I asked for the first question: "Is religion anything?" They began discussing this with a host of arguments. I asked them to refer the question to the audience. They did so. The general response was that this question needed so much investigation that there was no way it could be finished by the end of the evening.
"Could you finish within a year?" I asked.
Someone answered that it could not be finished within a hundred years.
I said, "Meanwhile you have no religion; and because salvation depends on religion, you have no concept of, faith in, or hope of salvation. "
The person replied, "Won't someone have to show first whether religion exists, then what it is, and if it is anything? If it is something, it must exist for the wise; if it is not, then it exists only for the general public. As we know, religion is called a restraint, but there is the question of whom it restrains. If it is only a restraint for the general public, then it is not really anything. But if it is also a restraint for the wise, then it is something.
[4] On hearing that I said, "You are all anything but learned, because you are incapable of any other thought except whether something exists, and you deflect this question into subquestions. Can anyone be learned without knowing something for certain? Only when something is established can we move forward with it, just as people walk, putting one foot in front of the other; then we advance gradually into wisdom. Otherwise, rather than touching truths with even the tip of your finger, you move them farther and farther out of sight. Reasoning solely about whether something exists is reasoning about a hat that you never put on, or about a shoe that you never wear. What comes of it except not knowing whether anything exists or is anything other than an idea? What comes of it but not knowing whether salvation exists, or whether there is eternal life after death, or whether one religion is better than another, or whether there is a heaven or a hell? You are incapable of having any thought on these issues as long as you are stuck on the first step, treading the sand there, rather than lifting one foot after another and moving forward. While your minds are standing out in the open like this away from the shelter of a decision, watch out that your minds don't harden inside and become statues of salt. "
After I said this I left. They were considerably irritated and threw stones at me. At that point they looked to me like statues that had no human reason inside. I asked the angels about the final outcome of their lives. The angels said, "The lowest of them are sent down deep to a desert and are forced to carry loads. Because they cannot offer anything on the basis of reason, they blather and speak nonsense. From far away they look like donkeys carrying burdens. "
333. The second experience.
Some time later I heard again from the lower earth the same cries as before 'How learned, how learned!' On looking around to see who was there, I found myself in the presence of angels from the heaven exactly above the people who were shouting 'How learned!'
When I talked to them about the shouting, they said that these were learned people who only argue whether a thing exists or not, and rarely reach the thought that it is so. 'They are therefore like winds which blow and pass on, or like bark around trees that have no heartwood, or like almond shells with no kernel, or like the peel around fruits with no flesh inside. For their minds are devoid of interior judgment, and merely coupled to the bodily senses. So if the senses themselves are unable to judge, they can reach no conclusions. In short, they are creatures of their senses, and we call them logicmongers. We call them this because they never reach any conclusions, but they pick up anything they hear and argue whether it exists, continually speaking for and against. Nothing gives them more pleasure than attacking truths and by subjecting them to argument tearing them in pieces. These are the people who consider themselves learned beyond anyone in the world.'
[2] On hearing this I begged the angels to take me down to visit them. So they took me down to a hollow, from which steps led down to the lower earth. We went down and followed the sound of shouting 'How learned!' There we found some hundreds of people standing in one place stamping on the ground. I was surprised at this and asked: 'Why are they standing like that stamping on the ground? They might,' I added, 'make a hole in the ground like that.'
The angels smiled at this and said: 'They seem to stand in one place because they never think about anything being so, but only whether it exists, and this they argue about. When thought makes no further progress, they seem merely to trample and wear out one clod of earth without advancing.'
The angels went on: 'Those who arrive in this world from the natural one, and are told that they are in a different world, form groups in many places, and try to find out where heaven and hell are, and likewise where God is. But even after being taught this, they still begin reasoning, debating and arguing whether God exists. They do so because at the present time so many people in the natural world are nature-worshippers, and when the talk turns to religion this is the subject they discuss among themselves and with others. This proposition and discussion rarely ends in an affirmation of faith in the existence of God. Afterwards these people associate more and more with the wicked; this happens because no one can do any good from the love of good, except by God's help.'
[3] After this I was taken to a meeting, and there I saw people with not unpleasing faces and well dressed. 'They look like this,' said the angels, 'in their own light, but if light is shed from heaven, there is a change in their faces, and in their clothes.' This happened, and their faces turned swarthy and they seemed to be wearing black sackcloth. But when this light was shut off, they returned to their previous appearance.
A little later I spoke with some of the people in the meeting and said: 'I have heard the crowd around you crying out "How learned!" So I should like, if I may, to enter into conversation with you about matters of the most profound learning.' 'Say anything you like,' they replied, 'and we will satisfy you.'
'What sort of religion,' I asked, 'will effect people's salvation?'
'We shall split up this question,' they said, 'into several, and we cannot give a reply until we have settled these. The order of discussion will be: (1) whether religion is of any importance; (2) whether or not there is such a thing as salvation; (3) whether one religion is more efficacious than another; (4) whether heaven and hell exist; (5) whether there is everlasting life after death; and many more questions.'
So I asked about the first question, whether religion is of any importance; and they started discussing it with many arguments. So I asked them to refer it to the meeting, which they did. The agreed reply was that this proposition requires so much investigation that it would not be finished before evening. 'Could you,' I asked, 'finish it within a year?' One of them said it could not be finished in a hundred years. 'So,' I said, 'in the meantime you have no religion, and since salvation depends upon it, you have no idea of salvation, no belief in it or hope for it.'
'Wouldn't you like us,' he replied, 'to prove first whether religion exists, what it is, and whether it is of any importance? If it exists, it will be for the wise too; if it does not, it will be only for the common people. It is well known that religion is called a bond; but the question may be asked, "For whom?" If it is only for the common people, it is not really of any importance; but if it is for the wise, then it is.'
[4] On hearing this I said: 'You are anything but learned, since you can think of nothing but whether it exists, and argue this in either direction. Can anyone be learned, unless he knows something for certain, and advances to that conclusion, just as a person advances step by step, and in due course achieves wisdom? Otherwise you do not so much as touch truths with your finger-tips, but drive them further and further from your sight. Therefore reasoning only whether it exists is like arguing about a hat without wearing it, or about a shoe without putting it on. What can come of this, except ignorance whether anything exists, whether anything is more than an idea, and so whether salvation exists, or everlasting life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether heaven and hell exist? You cannot have any thoughts on these subjects, so long as you are bogged down at the first step and pound the sand there, unable to put one foot in front of the other and make progress. Take care that, while your minds stand in the open outside the court, they do not inwardly grow ossified and turn into pillars of Salt.'
With these words I left them, and they were so incensed they threw stones after me. Then they looked to me like carvings, totally devoid of human reason. I asked the angels what was their fate. They said that the worst of them are plunged into the depths, and there they find a desert, where they are forced to carry loads. Since they can then make no reasonable utterance, they chatter and make idle remarks, Seen from a distance there they look like donkeys carrying loads.
333. Second Memorable Relation:
After a while I heard again from the lower earth the exclamations I had heard before, "O how learned! O how learned!" And I looked about to see who were present, and behold the angels were there who occupied the heaven directly above those who cried, "O how learned!"
To these I spoke about the shouting, and they said, "Those learned spirits are such as merely reason whether a thing is so or is not, and who rarely think that it is so. Therefore they are like winds that come and go, like bark around hollow trees, and like nutshells without a kernel; or like a rind about fruit without pulp; for their minds are devoid of interior judgment, and are merely united with the bodily senses; unless therefore the senses themselves decide, they are able to form no conclusions. In a word, they are merely sensual, and we call them Reasoners. They are so called because they never come to a conclusion about anything, but take up whatever they hear and dispute as to whether it is so or not, with unceasing contention. They love nothing better than to attack truths, and tear them to pieces by bringing them into disputation. These believe themselves to be more learned than all others in the world."
[2] Having heard this, I asked the angels to conduct me to them; and they led me to a cave, from which steps descended to the lower earth. We went down, following the cry, "O how learned!" And behold, several hundred spirits stood in one place, stamping upon the ground. Wondering at this, I asked why they thus stood and stamped the ground with their feet, adding, that they might make a hole in it with their feet.
At this the angels smiled and said, "They appear so to stand still, because their thought on any subject is never that it is so, but only whether it is so or not, and thus it is a matter of dispute; and as they never get beyond this in their thought, they appear as never advancing, but only as treading and wearing on one spot."
The angels also said, "Those who come from the natural world into this and hear that they are in another world form themselves into companies in many places and ask where heaven is, where hell is, and where God is. And when they have been told they begin to reason, dispute, and contend about whether there is a God. This they do, because in the natural world at the present day, there are so many naturalists, who, whenever religion is talked about, bring the subject into dispute, both among themselves and with others; and the discussion of this question rarely terminates in an affirmation of belief that there is a God. Afterwards these persons associate themselves more and more with the wicked, which is done because no one can do any good from the love of good, except from God."
[3] After this I was conducted to that assembly, and behold, there appeared to me men handsomely clothed and with faces not unbecoming; and the angels said, "These so appear in their own light; but if the light of heaven flows in, both their faces and their garments are changed." And when the light of heaven was admitted, they appeared with dusky faces and clothed in coarse black garments; but this light being withdrawn, they appeared as before.
Presently I talked with some of the assembly, and said, "I heard from the throng about you the shout, 'O how learned!' It may therefore be permissible to have a conversation with you on matters of the most learned nature."
They replied, "Say what you please; we will give you a satisfactory answer."
And I asked, "What kind of religion is necessary for the salvation of man?"
They answered, "We will divide this question into several; and until these are decided we can give no reply. The investigation will proceed as follows: (1) Is religion anything? (2) Is there such a thing as salvation or not? (3) Is one religion more efficacious than another? (4) Is there a heaven and a hell? (5) Is there is an eternal life after death? besides other questions."
I asked about the first question, Is religion anything? and they began to discuss it with a host of arguments. I begged of them to refer it to the assembly. They did; and the general response was, that this proposition required so much investigation that it could not be finished before evening.
I asked them whether they could finish it within a year.
One of them replied, that it could not be finished in a hundred years.
I answered, "Meanwhile you are without religion; and as salvation depends on this, you are without any idea of salvation or any belief in it or hope of it."
He replied, "Must it not first be shown whether there is such a thing as religion, and what it is, and whether it is anything? If it is, it must be also for the wise; if not, it must be for the vulgar only. It is known that religion is called a bond; but for whom is it a bond? If for the vulgar only in reality it is not anything; but if for the wise also, then it is something."
[4] Hearing this, I said, "You are anything but learned, because you are able to think only whether a thing is so or not, and bandy it from one side to the other. How can a man be learned unless he knows something for a certainty and advances in the knowledge of it as a man walks, step by step, thus gradually attaining to wisdom? Otherwise you do not even touch truths with the tip of your finger, but you remove them further and further out of sight. Therefore to reason merely as to whether a thing is so or not, is to reason about the fit of a cap or shoe without ever trying it on. What then comes of this but that you do not know whether anything is a reality, or is only an idea, thus whether there is such a thing as salvation, or eternal life after death, whether one religion is better than another, or whether there is a heaven and a hell? On these subjects you cannot think at all so long as you stick at the first step, and tread the ground there, instead of bringing forward one foot after the other, and going on. Have a care for your selves lest your minds, while standing thus outside the door of judgment, grow hard within and become like pillars of salt."
So saying I withdrew, while they from indignation threw stones after me. They then appeared to me like graven images in which there is nothing of human reason.
I asked the angels of the lot of such; and they said that the lowest of them were sent down into the deep, into a desert there, and are compelled to carry packs; and then, as they are unable to evolve anything from reason, they gabble and talk nonsense, and at a distance they appear like asses carrying burdens.
333. The second experience. Some time later, I again heard from the lower earth voices calling out as before, "Oh, how learned! Oh, how learned!" On looking round to see who my companions were, I saw some angels belonging to the heaven immediately above those who were calling out. I spoke to them about this exclamation, and they said that the learned were those who only reason as to whether a thing is, or is not, and seldom base their consideration on the ground that a thing is. They are, therefore, like the winds which blow and pass away, and like bark around trees without pith. They are also like shells of almonds without any kernel, or like the rind of fruit without the pulp. For their minds are devoid of interior judgment, and are connected only with the bodily senses; so that if the senses make no decision, they can form no conclusion; in short, they are mere sensualists. We call them reasoners, because they never come to any conclusion, but make whatever they hear a matter of argument, questioning its existence, and contradicting without end. They love nothing better than to attack truths, and pull them to pieces in discussion; yet these believe they are learned above all men in the world."
[2] Having heard this, I requested the angels to conduct me to them; and they brought me to a cave from which a flight of steps led down to the lower earth. We descended, and proceeding in the direction of the cry, "Oh, how learned!" we saw several hundred persons standing in one place, and stamping on the ground. Surprised at this sight, I enquired why there were so standing and beating the ground with their feet; and I added that they should soon stamp a hollow in the ground. At this the angels smiled and said, "They appear to stand in the one place, because they have no thoughts about anything on the ground that it exists, but only as to whether it does exist, always arguing; and as long as their thought makes no progress, they seem to tread and trample upon one spot, without advancing one step forward." The angels continued: "Such persons who come from the natural world into this, and hear that they are in another world, form themselves into companies in many places, and ask where heaven is, and where hell is, and also where God is. Moreover, even after being instructed they still begin to reason, to argue, and to dispute about whether there is a God. This happens because in the natural world to-day there are so many materialists who, in their own company and in the company of others, when the discourse turns upon religion, make the existence of God a matter of debate; and the discussion on this subject seldom terminates in the belief that there is a God. Later, these persons associate more and more with the wicked; for no one can do anything that is good from the love of good, except from God."
[3] I was then conducted to their assembly, and to me they seemed good looking and handsomely dressed. The angels said, "This is their appearance in their own light; but if light from heaven flows down upon them, both their faces and their clothing undergo a change." The light of heaven was admitted, and then their faces took on a dusky hue, and they seemed to be clothed in black sack-cloth; but on the removal of this light, they appeared as before. After a short time I spoke to several of the company, and said, I heard from the crowd around you the cry, 'Oh, how learned!' May I be permitted then to converse with you on matters of the deepest learning?" They replied: "Mention any subject you please, and we will endeavor to give you a satisfactory answer." So I asked, "What kind of religion is necessary for the salvation of man?" To this they replied "We will divide this question into several parts; and we cannot answer until we have come to a decision upon these. Our inquiry, then, will proceed under the following heads: 1. Is religion anything? 2. Is there such a thing as salvation, or not? 3. Is there any one religion more efficacious than another? 4. Is there a heaven and a hell? 5. Is there eternal life after death? with many other points in addition." I then raised the first question: Is religion anything? Thereupon they began to discuss this with a wealth of argument; and I begged them to refer it to the assembly. They did so, and the general answer was, that it was a matter requiring so much investigation that it could not be finished in an evening. Then I asked whether they could complete it in a year; and one of them replied that it could not be done in a hundred years. To this I rejoined: "In the meantime you are without religion; and because salvation depends upon it, you are without any conception of what salvation is, without any faith in it, or any hope of attaining it." The same one answered, "Ought it not first to be proved whether there is such a thing as religion, what it is, and whether it is anything real? If there is such a thing, it must be for the wise; if not, but only a fiction, it must be for the common people. It is well known that religion means a bond; but the question arises, for whom? If it is only for the common people, it is nothing in itself; but if it is also for the wise, then it is something."
[4] Thereupon I said: "You are anything but learned, because you can entertain only one subject of thought, namely, whether a thing is; and your discussion is limited to, whether a thing is, or is not. No one can be learned unless he knows something for certain, and makes progress in it, as a man makes progress in walking step by step, till he gradually attains to wisdom. Otherwise you do not touch truths even with your finger nail, but you remove them more and more out of sight. Thus, to reason only as to whether a thing is, is like reasoning as to whether a hat and a shoe will fit, without ever putting them on. It follows then that you do not know whether anything is, or whether it exists only in idea; thus whether there is such a thing as salvation, or eternal life after death, whether one religion is better than another, and whether there is a heaven and a hell. On these subjects you cannot form any conception as long as you halt at the first step, and stand there beating the sand, instead of setting one foot before the other in order to make progress. Take heed lest your minds, halting thus outside the door of decision, should interiorly harden, and become statues of salt."
With these words I departed, and they in their indignation threw stones after me. Then they appeared to me like graven images, devoid of human reason. I asked the angels concerning their lot; and they told me that the lowest of them are sent down to a desert place, and compelled to carry burdens. There, as they are incapable of acting rationally, they babble nonsense, and at a distance appear like asses bearing burdens.
333. SECUNDUM MEMORABILE.
Post aliquod tempus audivi iterum ex infera Terra, voces quas prius, O QUAM ERUDITI, O QUAM ERUDITI, et circumspexi quinam adessent, et ecce erant Angeli, qui in Coelo immediate supra illos, qui clamabant, 1 O QUAM ERUDITI, erant; et loquutus cum illis de clamore, et dixerunt, quod Eruditi illi essent, qui solum ratiocinantur, NUM SIT, VEL NON SIT, et raro cogitant QUOD ITA SIT, quare sunt sicut Venti qui flant et transeunt; ac sicut cortices circum arbores quae absque medulla sunt, et sicut crustae circum amygdala absque nucleo; aut sicut superficies circum fructus absque carne; nam Mentes illorum sunt absque interiori judicio, et modo unitae cum Sensibus corporis, quare si non ipsi Sensus judicant, nihil possunt concludere; verbo sunt mere Sensuales, et a nobis vocantur RATIOCINATORES; vocantur Ratiocinatores, quia nusquam concludunt aliquid, sed assumunt quicquid audiunt, et disputant, num sit, jugiter contradicendo; nihil plus amant, quam aggredi veritates, et sic illas discerpere mittendo in lites; hi sunt qui credunt se prae omnibus in Mundo Eruditos.
[2] His auditis, rogavi Angelos, ut deducerent me ad illos, et deduxerunt [me] 2 ad Cavum, a quo gradus ad inferiorem terram tendebant, et descendimus, et sequuti sumus Clamorem, O quam Eruditi, et ecce erant aliquot centeni stantes in uno loco pulsantes humum [pedibus]; 3 hoc miratus quaesivi, cur stant ita et plantis pulsant humum, et addidi, sic possunt pedibus excavare solum; ad hoc subriserunt Angeli, et dixerunt, apparet quod ita stent, quia nihil cogitant de aliqua re quod ita sit, sed solum Numeri ita sit, ac litigant, et cum cogitatio non ultra progreditur, apparent modo calcare et terere unam glebam, et non progredi: et dixerunt Angeli, illi qui e Mundo Naturali in Hunc alluunt, et audiunt, quod in alio Mundo sint, colligunt se multis in locis in Caetus, et quaerunt ubi Coelum et ubi Infernum, ut et ubi Deus; at postquam instructi sunt, usque incipiunt ratiocinari, disputare et altercari, Numeri DEUS SIT, hoc faciunt, quia hodie in Mundo naturali tam multi Naturalistae sunt, et hi inter se et cum aliis, quando loquela est de Religione, hoc in ventilationem mittunt, et haec propositio et ventilatio raro terminatur in affirmativo fidei, quod Deus sit; et hi postea plus et plus consociant se cum malis, et hoc fit, quia nemo potest aliquod bonum ex amore boni facere nisi a Deo.
[3] Postea deductus sum ad congregationem, et ecce apparebant mihi homines facie non indecora, et in vestibus ornatus; et dixerunt Angeli, apparent tales in propria luce, at si lux e Coelo influit, mutantur facies, et quoque vestes; et factum est ita, et tunc apparebant faciebus furvis, induti saccis nigris; sed luce hac subtracta, visi sunt ut prius. Mox loquutus sum cum aliquibus ex congregatione, et dixi, audivi Clamorem turbae circum vos, O quam Eruditi, quare liceat de rebus, quae summae Eruditionis sunt, vobiscum sociare sermonem, et responderunt, dic quicquid lubet, et satisfaciemus; et quaesivi, qualis erit Religio, per quam salvatur homo; et dixerunt, dispescemus hanc interrogationem in plures, et antequam has conclusimus, non possumus responsum dare; ac ventilatio erit, 1. Num Religio sit aliquid. 2. Num salvatio sit vel non. 3. Num una Religio plus efficiat quam altera. 4. Numeri Coelum et Infernum sit. 5. Numeri vita aeterna post mortem sit; praeter plura: et quaesivi de Primo, Num religio sit aliquid, et coeperunt ventilare hoc copia argumentorum; et petivi ut referrent hoc ad Congregationem, ac retulerunt; et commune responsum fuit, quod Propositio illa egeat tam multa inquisitione, ut non possit finiri intra vesperam; at quaesivi, num a vobis possit finiri intra annum, et unus dixit, quod non possit intra centum annos; et dixi, interea estis absque Religione, et quia salvatio inde pendet, estis absque idea, fide, et spe salvationis; et respondit, annon demonstrabitur primum, num Religio sit, et quid illa, et num sit aliquid; si est, erit etiam pro sapientibus, si non est, erit solum pro vulgo; notum est, quod Religio dicatur Vinculum, sed quaeritur pro quibus; si modo pro vulgo, in se non est aliquid, si etiam pro sapientibus, est.
[4] His auditis dixi, nihil minus quam Eruditi estis, quia non potestis aliud cogitare, quam num sit, et hoc versare in utramque partem; quis potest Eruditus esse, nisi aliquid 4 pro certo sciat, et progrediatur in illud, sicut homo progreditur e vestigio in vestigium, et successive in sapientiam; alioquin Veritates ne quidem tangitis ungue, sed plus et plus e conspectu removetis illas; quare ratiocinari solum num sit, est ratiocinari ex pileo, qui nunquam imponitur, aut ex calceo qui non induitur; quid inde profluit, nisi quod non sciatis, Numeri detur aliquid, et num sit quicquam nisi idea, ita Numeri detur salvatio, Numeri vita aeterna post mortem, num una Religio praestet alteri, Numeri Coelum et Infernum sint; de his non cogitare aliquid potestis, quamdiu haeretis in primo passu, et pulsatis arenam ibi, et non ferendo fertis pedem ultra pedem, et progredimini. Cavete vobis, ne Mentes vestrae, dum ita foris extra judicium stant, intus indurescant et fiant statuae salis. His dictis abivi, et illi ex indignatione conjecerunt lapides post me, et tunc mihi visi sunt sicut sculptilia, quibus nihil rationis humanae inest. Et quaesivi Angelos de sorte illorum, et dixerunt, quod infimi illorum demittantur in profundum, et ibi in desertum, et adigantur ad portandum sarcinas, et tunc quia non possunt aliquid proferre ex ratione, garriunt et loquuntur vana, et ibi e longinquo apparent sicut asini portantes onera.
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