5078.“膳长”表在身体里面那些受意愿部分支配的事物当中。这从“膳长”的含义清楚可知，“膳长”是指受内在人的意愿部分支配的外在或身体感官。“膳长”之所以具有这种含义，是因为用作食物或用来吃的一切，如饼，一般的固体食物，或“膳长”所做的一切都与良善，因而与意愿有关；因为一切良善皆喂养意愿，正如一切真理皆喂养理解力，如刚才所述（5077节）。“饼”表示属天之物或良善（1798，2165，2177，3478，3735，3813，4211，4217，4735，4976节）。
本章在此处和接下来的几节之所以在内义上论述这两种外在感官能力，是因为前一章所论述的主题是主，以及祂如何荣耀祂的属世层的内层，或使它变成神性，故此处所论述的主题是主，以及祂如何荣耀祂的属世层的外层，或使它变成神性。准确来说，属世层的外层被称为身体事物，或这两种感官能力连同它们的接受肢体和器官，因为这些接受者连同这些能力构成被称为身体的事物，如前所示（5077节）。主使构成其身体的一切，包括它的感官能力及其接受肢体和器官，都变成神性；这也解释了为何祂带着祂的身体从坟墓里复活，复活后告诉祂的门徒：
你们看我的手，我的脚，是我自己；摸我看看！灵无肉无骨，你们看，我是有的。（路加福音24:39）
当今属教会的绝大多数人以为每个人在末日都要复活，并且那时与他的身体一同复活。这种观点如此普遍，以致根据教义，几乎没有人相信别的。但这种观点之所以盛行，是因为属世人以为唯独身体是生命的拥有者。因此，他若不相信身体会再次接受生命，就会完全否认复活。但这个问题的真相是这样：人死后随即复活；那时他觉得自己似乎如在世时那样处于自己的身体，具有一样的脸、肢体、臂、手、脚、胸、腹和腰，以致当看见并触摸自己时，他说，他和在世时一样是一个人。然而，他所看、所摸的，不是他在世时携带的外在，而是构成真正的这个人的内在。内在才是那拥有生命在里面的，但在它的周围或它的每一个部分之外拥有外在；它凭这外在能存在于世界，并能以正确的方式行动，履行它的功能。
尘世肉体部分不再对他有用。他在另一个世界拥有他在那里所拥有的那种身体所适合的其它功能、其它力量和能力。他用自己的眼睛看见这具身体，不是用他在世时的肉眼，而是用他现在另一个世界所拥有的眼睛。它们是其内在人的眼睛，他之前靠内在人的眼睛通过肉眼来看见世俗和尘世物体。他也触摸并感受那身体，不是用手，或他在世上被赋予的触觉，而是用他在另一个世界被赋予，并置于他在世上的触觉背后的手和触觉。此外，在那个世界，每种感觉都更敏锐、更完美，因为它属于从外在人当中被释放出来的内在人。内在处于更完美的状态；因为正是它赋予外在以感觉能力；但当它进入外在起作用时，如在世时的情形，这种感觉能力就会钝化并模糊。而且，内在的感官觉知是一种对内在之物的觉知，外在的感官觉知是一种对外在之物的觉知。正因如此，人们死后能看见彼此，并照其内层在社群里相聚。为叫我确定这一点，我蒙允许触摸灵人本身，并常常与他们谈论这个话题（参看322，1630，4622节）。
死后的人（那时，他们被称为灵人，若过着良善的生活，就被称为天使）对教会成员以为他要等到世界毁灭的末日才会看见永生，那时他会再度披上早已抛弃的尘土；然而，属教会的人知道他死后会复活。因为当有人死去时，谁不会说，他的灵魂或灵上天堂或下地狱？谈到自己死去的孩子时，谁不会说他们上天堂了？谁不会安慰得了绝症的人或被判处死刑的人说，他很快就会进入来世？陷入死亡之痛，并为此作好准备的人不会相信别的。事实上，对人死后复活的这种信仰使得许多人声称，他们有权柄将其他人从咒诅之地释放出来，让他们上天堂，并为他们的灵魂作弥撒。谁不知道主对犯人说：今日你要同我在乐园里了（路加福音23:43）；还有祂指着财主和拉撒路所说的话，前者被下入地狱，后者被天使带进天堂（路加福音16:22-23）？谁不知道主关于复活的教导，祂说：神原不是死人的神，乃是活人的神（路加福音20:38）？
当出于他的灵思考和说话时，他便知道这些事，并如此思考和说话。但当出于他的教义思考和说话时，说法则迥然不同，即：他要等到末日才会复活。而事实上，每个人的末日就在他死亡之际，也是对他的审判之时，如许多人所宣称的那样。至于何谓“我的皮肉灭绝之后得见神”（约伯记19:25，26），可参看前文（3540e节）。说这些话是为了叫人们知道，没有人在他在世时所披的肉体中复活；唯独主如此复活，这是因为祂在世时荣耀了祂的身体，或使它变成神性。
Potts(1905-1910) 5078
5078. And the baker. That this signifies in those things in the body which are subject to the will part, is evident from the signification of a "baker," as being that external sensuous, or sensuous of the body, which is subordinate or subject to the will part of the internal man. A "baker" has this signification because everything that serves for food, or that is eaten, such as bread, food in general, and all the work of the baker, is predicated of good, and therefore bears relation to the will part; for all good is of this part, just as all truth is of the intellectual part (as was said just above, n. 5077). (That "bread" is the celestial, or good, may be seen above, n. 1798, 2165, 2177, 3478, 3735, 3813, 4211, 4217, 4735, 4976.) [2] The reason why here and in the following verses of this chapter the external sensuous things of both kinds are treated of in the internal sense is that in the previous chapter the subject treated of was the Lord, and how He glorified or made Divine the interiors of His natural; here therefore the subject treated of is the Lord, and how He glorified or made Divine the exteriors of His natural. The exteriors of the natural are what are properly called the bodily things, or the sensuous things of both kinds together with their recipient organs, for these together constitute what is called the body (as shown above, n. 5077). The Lord made the very bodily in Himself Divine, both its sensuous things and their recipient organs; and He therefore rose again from the sepulcher with His body, and likewise after His resurrection said to the disciples:
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; feel Me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have (Luke 24:39). [3] Most of those who are of the church at this day believe that everyone is to rise again at the last day, and with his body; which opinion is so universal that from doctrine scarcely anyone believes otherwise. But this opinion has prevailed because the natural man supposes that it is only the body that lives; and therefore unless he believed that the body would receive life again, he would deny the resurrection altogether. But the truth of the matter is this. Man rises again immediately after death, and he then appears to himself in a body just as in this world, with a similar face, members, arms, hands, feet, breast, belly, and loins; so that when he sees and touches himself, he says that he is a man as in the world. Nevertheless what he sees and touches is not his external which he carried about in the world, but it is the internal which constitutes that very human which is alive, and which had an external about it, or outside of every part of it, by which it could be in the world and be adapted for acting and performing its functions there. [4] The earthly bodily part is no longer of any use to him, he being in another world where are other functions, and other powers and abilities, to which the nature of his body there is adapted. This body he sees with his eyes, not those which he had in the world, but those which he has there, which are the eyes of his internal man and by which through the eyes of the body he had before seen worldly and earthly things. This body he also feels with the touch, not with the hands or the sense of touch which he enjoyed in the world, but with the hands and the sense of touch which he enjoys there, which is that from which his sense of touch in the world came forth. Moreover, every sense is more exquisite and more perfect there, because it is the sense of the internal of man freed from the external; for the internal is in a more perfect state, because it gives to the external the power of sensation; but when it acts into the external, as is the case in the world, sensation is dulled and obscured. Moreover, it is the internal which is sensible of the internal, and the external which is sensible of the external. Thus it is that men after death see one another, and are in company together according to their interiors. In order that I might be certain in regard to this matter, it has been given me to touch the spirits themselves, and often to converse with them about it (see n. 322, 1630, 4622). [5] Men after death, who are then called spirits, and if they have lived in good, angels, marvel exceedingly that the man of the church believes that he is not to see eternal life until the last day when the world shall perish, and that he is then to be clothed again with the cast-off dust; when yet the man of the church knows that he rises again after death; for when a man dies, who does not then say that his soul or spirit is in heaven or else in hell? And who does not say of his children who have died that they are in heaven? And who does not comfort a sick person, or one appointed to die, by the assurance that he will shortly come into the other life? And he who is in the agony of death and is prepared, believes no otherwise; nay, from this belief many also claim for themselves the power of delivering others from places of damnation, and of admitting them into heaven, while saying masses on their behalf. Who does not know what the Lord said to the thief, "Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), and what He said of the rich man and Lazarus, that the former was carried into hell, but the latter borne by the angels into heaven (Luke 16:22-23)? And who does not know what the Lord taught concerning the resurrection, that "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Luke 20:38)? [6] A man knows these things, and so thinks and speaks when he thinks and speaks from his spirit; but when he thinks and speaks from his doctrine, he says very differently-that he is not to rise again till the last day; when yet the last day to everyone is when he dies, and then also is his judgment, as indeed many say. What is meant by "being encompassed with skin, and from the flesh seeing God" (Job 19:25, 26), may be seen above (n. 3540e). These things are said in order that it may be known that no man rises again in the body with which he was clothed in the world; but that the Lord alone so rose, and this because He glorified His body, or made it Divine, while He was in the world.
Elliott(1983-1999) 5078
5078. 'And the baker' means among the things in the body which are subject to the will part. This is clear from the meaning of 'the baker' as the external or bodily senses which are subordinate or subject to the will part of the internal man. The reason 'the baker' has this meaning is that everything which serves as food or is consumed as such, for example, bread, solid foods in general, and anything made by a baker, has reference to good and so to the will; for all good feeds the will, just as every truth feeds the understanding, as stated immediately above in 5077. By 'bread' is meant what is celestial, or goodness, see 1798, 2165, 2177, 3478, 3735, 3813, 4211, 4217, 4735, 4976.
[2] The reason why here and in the rest of this chapter external sensory powers of both kinds are dealt with in the internal sense is that the previous chapter dealt with how the Lord glorified or made Divine the interior aspects of His Natural, and therefore the present chapter deals with how the Lord glorified or made Divine the exterior aspects of that Natural. The exterior aspects of the natural are rightly called bodily ones, being both kinds of sensory powers of perception together with their recipient members and organs; for these recipients together with those powers make up that which is referred to as the body, see above in 5077. The Lord made Divine all that constituted His body, both its sensory Powers and their recipient members and organs, which also explains Why He rose from the grave with His body, and after the Resurrection told His disciples,
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; handle Me, and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have. Luke 24:39.
[3] Most people at the present day who belong to the Church believe that everyone is going to rise again on the last day and to do so at that time with his body. This supposition is so universal that scarcely anyone, because of what he is taught, believes anything different. But that supposition has gained strength because the natural man imagines that the body alone is the possessor of life. Consequently if he were not allowed to believe that this body is going to receive life once again he would refuse to believe in any resurrection at all. But the truth of the matter is that a person rises again immediately after death, at which point he seems to himself to be in his body just the same as when he was in the world, having a face and members, arms, hands, feet, breast, belly, and loins like the ones he had before. Indeed when he sees himself and touches himself he says he is exactly as he was in the world. However, that which he sees and touches is not his external which he carried round in the world but the internal which constituted the real person. That internal is what had life within it, but it had the external surrounding it, or outside every individual part of it, enabling it to exist in the world where it could act in the right way and carry out its functions.
[4] The actual earthly body is of no further use to him. He is in another world where he possesses other functions and other strengths and powers for which the kind of body he has there is suited. He sees that body with his own eyes - not the eyes he had in the world but those he now has in that other world. They are the eyes of his internal man, the ones he had used previously to see with through the eyes of his body and behold worldly and earthly objects. He also touches and feels that body - not with the hands or sense of touch he had been given in the world but with the hands and sense of touch which he is given in that other world and which had lain behind his sense of touch in the world. Furthermore each of the senses in that other world is keener and more perfect because it belongs to the internal man released from the external. The internal dwells in a greater state of perfection, because it is this that supplies sensory awareness to the external, though when it acts into the external, as it does in the world, that power is blunted and reduced. What is more, the sensory perception of the internal is a perception of what is internal, that of the external a perception of what is external. This being so, people can see one another after death, and they exist grouped together in communities on the basis of what they are inwardly like. In order to become quite sure of this I have been allowed to touch actual spirits and to talk to them many times on this subject, see 322, 1630, 4622.
[5] People after death - who are then called spirits or, if they have led good lives, angels - are utterly amazed at what the member of the Church believes about himself. For he believes that he will not see eternal life until the last day when the world is destroyed, and that at that time he will be reclothed with the dust that has been cast away; when yet one who belongs to the Church knows that he rises again after death. For who does not say, when someone dies, that his soul or spirit is in heaven, or in hell? Who does not say about his young children who have died that they are in heaven? Who does not comfort a person who is [incurably] sick or one who is condemned to death by saying that shortly he will enter the next life? And one who is in the throes of death and has been prepared for it does not believe anything different. Indeed such a conviction about a person's rising again after he has died is what leads many to claim that they have the power to release others from places of condemnation and to admit them into heaven, and to say masses for their souls. Is anyone unacquainted with what the Lord said to the robber, 'Today you will be with Me in paradise', Luke 23:43, or with what the Lord said about the rich man and Lazarus, that the former was carried off into hell, whereas the latter was taken by the angels into heaven, Luke 16:22, 23? Or is anyone unacquainted with what the Lord taught about the resurrection when He said that God is not the God of the dead but of the living, Luke 20:38?
[6] A person acquainted with all this thinks in these ways and speaks in these ways when his spirit guides his thought and speech. But when his thought and speech are guided by what doctrine teaches that person says something entirely different, namely that he will not rise again Until the last day. But in fact each person's last day is at hand when he dies, and this is his time of judgement too, as many also declare. As to what is meant by 'being encompassed by my skin' and 'out of my flesh seeing God' in Job 19:25, 26, see 3540 (end). These things were said so that people may know that no one rises again in the body that encompassed him in the world except the Lord alone. He did so because, while in the world, He glorified His body, that is, He made it Divine.
Latin(1748-1756) 5078
5078. `Et pistor': quod significet apud illa in corpore quae subjecta sunt parti voluntariae, constat ex significatione `pistoris' quod sit sensuale externum seu sensuale corporis quod subordinatum seu subjectum est parti voluntariae interni hominis;quod `pistor' id significet, est quia omne quod esui inservit, seu quod editur, sicut `panis', `cibus in genere', et omne `opus pistoris' praedicatur de bono, et {1}sic se refert ad partem voluntariam; omne enim bonum est illius partis, sicut omne verum est partis intellectualis, ut mox supra n. (x)5077 dictum est; quod `panis' sit caeleste seu bonum, videatur n. 1798, 2165, 2177, 3478, 3735, 3813, 4211, 4217, 4735, 4976. Quod hic et in 2 sequentibus hujus capitis de sensualibus externis utriusque generis in sensu interno agatur, est quia in priore capite actum est de Domino quomodo Ipse interiora Naturalis Sui glorificavit seu Divina fecit, hic {2}igitur agitur de Domino quomodo Ipse exteriora Naturalis glorificavit seu Divina fecit; exteriora naturalis sunt quae proprie corporea vocantur, seu sensualia utriusque generis una cum recipientibus, {3}haec enim cum illis {4}constituunt (c)id quod corpus vocatur, videatur supra n. 5077; Dominus ipsum corporeum in Se Divinum fecit, tam sensualia ejus quam recipientia, quapropter etiam e sepulcro corpore resurrexit; et quoque post resurrectionem dixit discipulis, Videte manus Meas et pedes Meos, quod Ipse Ego sim, palpate Me et videte, nam spiritus {5}non carnem et ossa habet, sicut Me videtis habentem, Luc. xxiv 39. 3 Credunt plerique hodie qui ab Ecclesia, quod unusquisque resurrecturus sit ultimo die et tunc corpore; quae opinio tam universalis est ut vix aliquis {6} ex doctrinali aliter credat; sed illa opinio ideo invaluit quia homo naturalis putat quod solum corpus sit quod vivit; quapropter nisi illud vitam denuo recepturum crederet, negaret prorsus resurrectionem; sed ita se res habet:
homo statim post mortem resurgit et tunc apparet sibi in corpore prorsus sicut in mundo, cum tali facie, cum talibus membris, brachiis, manibus, pedibus, pectore, ventre, lumbis; immo etiam cum se videt et se tangit, dicit quod homo sit sicut in mundo; {7}at usque non est externum ejus quod circumtulit in mundo quod videt et tangit sed est internum quod constituit ipsum illud humanum quod {8}vivit, et quod externum circum se seu extra singula sui habui:, per quod esse potuit in mundo, et 4 convenienter ibi agere et functiones obire; ipsum corporeum terrestre non amplius ei alicui usui est; est in alio mundo ubi aliae functiones et aliae vires et potentiae, quibus corpus ejus quale ibi habet, adaptatum est; hoc videt oculis suis, non illis quos habuit in mundo, sed illis quos ibi habet, qui sunt interni ejus hominis et e quibus per oculos corporis viderat prius mundana et terrestria; id quoque tactu sentit, non manibus seu sensu tactus quo gavisus in mundo, sed manibus et sensu tactus quo gaudet ibi, qui est ex quo sensus ejus tactus in mundo exstitit; (m)omnis etiam sensus ibi est exquisitior et perfectior, quia est interni hominis soluti ab externo; internum enim {9}est in perfectiore statu quia {10}dat externo sentire, sed cum in externum agit, ut in mundo, tunc sensatio hebetatur et obscuratur; praeterea internum est quod sentit internum, et externum quod externum; inde est quod homine post mortem se mutuo videant, et {11}in societate simul sint secundum interiora; ut certus de illa re essem, etiam mihi datum est ipsos spiritus tangere, et cum illis multoties (t)de illa re loqui, 5 videatur n. 322, 1630, 4622.(n) Mirantur valde homines post mortem, qui tunc spiritus vocantur, {12}et qui in bono vixerunt, angeli, quod homo Ecclesiae credat se non prius visurum vitam aeternam quam ultimo die cum interiturus mundus, et quod tunc reinduiturus pulverem rejectum, cum tamen homo Ecclesiae novit quod post mortem resurgat. Quis enim non dicit, quando homo moritur, postea quod anima vel spiritus {13}ejus sit vel in caelo vel in inferno? et quis non dicit de infantibus suis qui mortui, quod in caelo sint? et quis non consolatur aegrotum, vel quoque morti judicatum, quod brevi venturus sit in alteram vitam? {14}ac qui in agone mortis est et praeparatus nec aliter credit'; (m)immo etiam ex illa fide multi vindicant sibi potestatem eximendi a locis {15}damnationis, et intromittendi in caelum, et missas faciendi pro illis; {16} quis non novit, quae Dominus dixit ad {17}latronem, `Hodie Mecum eris in paradiso', Luc. xxiii 43; et quae Dominus dixit de divite et Lazaro, quod {18}ille in infernum translatus sit, hic autem ab angelis in caelum? Luc. xvi 22, 23; et quis non novit, quae Dominus docuit de resurrectione, quod non {19}Deus sit mortuorum sed viventium? Luc. xx 38. Haec novit homo, 6 et quoque ita cogitat et ita loquitur cum ex spiritu cogitat et loquitur, at quando ex doctrinali, prorsus aliter dicit, quod nempe non prius resurrecturus sit quam ultimo die; cum tamen ultimus dies cuique sit cum moritur, et quoque tunc ei judicium, sicut etiam plures loquuntur: quid per `cute circumdari, et ex carne videre Deum', apud Hiobum xix 25, 26, intelligitur, videatur n. 3540 ad fin. Haec dicta sunt ob causam ut sciatur quod nullus homo corpore quo circumdatus fuit in mundo, resurgat, sed quod solus Dominus, et hoc quia Ipse corpus suum, dum fuit in mundo, glorificavit seu Divinum fecit. @1 ita$ @2 ideo$ @3 nam haec$ @4 After vocantur$ @5 After ossa$ @6 i hodie$ @7 sed$ @8 vixit$ @9 After statu$ @10 internum dat$ @11 omne sensum gaudeant$ @12 quod homo Ecclesiae credat se resurrecturum denuo et reinduiturum pulverem rejectum et non prius visurum vitam aeternam quam ultimo die, cum interiturus mundus$ @13 After anima$ @14 et qui cum in agone mortis est, et praeparatus, aliter credit$ @15 A d purgatoriis, i damnationis$ @16 i et$ @17 praedonem$ @18 i post mortem$ @19 After viventium$