1327. They asserted that they had suffered persecutions for their belief and for the Gospel, but because they were in a state like the one they had been in during their bodily life, they were asked whether they had suffered for their belief, thus for the Lord, or for themselves so that they might sit upon 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes; and so, whether they had suffered for the Kingdom of the Lord, or for their own Kingdom. Had they suffered on account of believing in the Lord, or on account of religious truth, when yet it is repulsive to truth to suffer for one's own glory or to be saved by one's own merit-a fact which they could not deny believing? But it was proven to them that they had suffered for their own glory, and therefore not for truth, no differently than those who suffer for heresies and suchlike causes.
As to their having believed, when yet it was not true believing, and yet had taught truly, this is quite a common and familiar circumstance. People can preach truths and yet live contrarily. They wanted also to broach the matter of their life, how they had condemned people and had arrogated to themselves the power of excommunicating and liberating, or closing and opening heaven. However, it was not allowable to bring up any of the personal matters of their lives.
And to their assertion that they had not believed otherwise than that they were suffering for true faith and thus for the Lord, they received the reply that everyone lives as they believe, and therefore from their life it may gathered what their real belief is. Many imagine that they believe or have faith, when yet they do not, because their life proves what their belief was. After giving this some thought, they were unable to reply. All that was said was that the Lord has something good in store for those who imagine they have faith, even if they do not.
1327. 1/2. They were therefore taught what the inward meaning is of the Lord's words that those will attain the heavenly kingdom who suffer persecution and are miserable, namely, that those suffering persecution, when it is for true faith and in the true faith, are not troubled about bodily and worldly concerns. The "miserable and the poor" mean those who are spiritually miserable and poor, whether they had been rich or poor in the world, or in a high position, or kings, or beggars-thus all who are spiritually miserable and poor, and therefore suffer persecution by falsities and evils, and endure them, as one undergoing temptations. Therefore, they are those who fight against the devil's gang. So all the words [of the blessings] are to be understood in their spiritual meaning.
1327. They said, however, that they had suffered persecutions for the sake of the Faith and the Gospel. And because they were then in a state such as they had been during the life of their body, they were asked whether they had suffered for the sake of the Faith, thus for the sake of the Lord? Was it not for the sake of themselves, that they might sit upon twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes? Was this for the sake of the Lord's Kingdom? Was it not for the sake of their own kingdom? Was it for the sake of faith in the Lord, thus for the sake of the truth of faith, when it is repugnant to the truth that they should suffer for the sake of their own glory, in order that they might be saved by virtue of their own merit? They were unable to deny this for it was what they had believed, and it was shown them that since it was for the sake of their own glory, thus not for the sake of the truth, that they were no different from those who suffer on account of heresies and like causes. As to their having believed, although their faith was not true, but nevertheless they had taught aright, this is common enough, and it is well known that men can preach truths but live contrary to them. They also wanted to refer to their life, how they had condemned men and had arrogated to themselves the power of excommunicating and of liberating, that is, of closing and opening heaven; it was not, however, permitted to refer to any particulars of their life whatsoever. As to their saying that they had believed no otherwise than that it was for the sake of the true faith and thus for the sake of the Lord, the reply was made that everyone lives as he believes, thus the quality of one's faith can be concluded from his life. It was also said that many suppose that they believe or have faith when yet they have none, for their life shows what faith they have. When they had carefully considered these things they could make no reply to them. It was said only that the Lord reserves some good for those who think that they believe, although they do not.
1327 1/2. They were therefore instructed in regard to the interior sense of the Lord's words that those who suffer persecution and who are miserable would attain the Heavenly Kingdom, namely, that it means those who suffer persecution when it is for the true faith, and when they are in the true faith, caring nothing for corporeal and worldly things. By the "miserable" and "poor" are meant those who are spiritually miserable and poor, and this whether in the world they have been rich or poor, in great dignity, kings or beggars, thus all who are spiritually miserable and poor. Those also are meant who suffer persecutions from things which are false and evil and endure them, as in temptations, thus those who fight against the devil's crew. All these things are thus to be understood in the spiritual sense.
1327. Sed dixerunt quod pro fide et evangelio, persecutiones passi sunt, sed quia in tali statu erant sicut in corporis sua vita, iis dictum est, an passi sint pro fide, sic pro Domino, an pro semet, ut sederent super 12 thronis, et judicarent 12 tribus, an sic pro Regno Domini, an pro suomet Regno, sic an pro fide in Dominum, sic num pro 1
veritate fidei, cum hoc repugnat veritati, ut pro sua gloria [paterentur], tum quod ex merito suo salvarentur, quod non negare potuerunt, quin id crediderint, sed iis ostensum est quod pro sua gloria, sic non pro veritate [passi sint], ita non aliter ac ii qui pro haeresibus, et pro similibus causis; quod crediderint, cum tamen non fides esset vera, et tamen vere docuerint, hoc satis commune et notum est, quod praedicare queant homines vera, sed tamen aliter vivere; voluerunt etiam vitam eorum {a} adferre, quomodo damnaverint homines, et arrogaverint sibi potestatem excommunicandi et liberandi, seu claudendi et aperiendi coelum, sed usque id non licitum erat in particularibus de vita eorum quicquam adferre: et quod dixerint, se non aliter credidisse, quam pro vera fide, et sic pro Domino, responsum est, quod unusquisque vivat, sicut credit, sic ex vita concludi possit, qualis fides, tum quod multi putent se credere seu fidem habere, cum tamen non habeant, quia vita ostendit, quae fides, ad haec, cum pensitarent quidem, nihil respondere poterant; modo dictum, quod Dominus reservet iis aliquid boni, qui putant se credere, tametsi non credunt.
1327a. Ideo instructi sunt, quis sensus interior verborum Domini sit, quod regnum coeleste adepturi qui persecutionem patiuntur, et qui miseri sunt: nempe qui persecutionem patiuntur, dum pro vera fide, et in vera fide, tunc nihil curant corporea et mundana, et quod per miseros et pauperes'' intelligantur qui spiritualiter miseri sunt et pauperes, ita si in mundo vel divites fuerint vel pauperes, vel in magna dignitate, si vel reges, vel 1
si mendicantes, ita omnes qui miseri et pauperes spiritualiter sunt, tum sic qui persecutiones patiuntur ab iis quae falsa sunt et mala, ac eas sustineant, ut in tentationibus, ita qui pugnant contra diaboli turbam: ita omnia in spirituali sensu intelligenda.
Footnotes:
1. imperfectum in the Manuscript