3503. I conversed with them on various topics, as for instance that in the other life no respect is paid to persons, but that the rich are saved equally with the poor, and that people can become rich, engage in business like the successful, and still be saved - for everyone is regarded according to their motive and their love; that there are rich ones among them who did business in this manner, yet who are heir to eternal life; and that the greater part of the poor are worse than they and are rejected.
But they raised the objection that if they were saved, they would have to give up doing business and give their money to the poor, and become miserable, whereupon I was prompted to reply that is not the case, and that the rich among them who are good and are saved have a different opinion. They are familiar with that passage, but they know and explain those words according to their deeper and true meaning.
[2] Take, for example, in the Lord's prayer, what I have said to those who are praying that the Lord would not lead them into temptations: those who are truly Christians say at once that the Lord leads no one into temptation. So they do not abide in the letter, but in the inward sense of the letter.
The same also applies to the words addressed to the rich young man, that he should sell all that he had, and take up the cross [Mark 10:21], which words understood in the inward sense have a different content. But people like this, addicted to filthy lucre, carry such words in the mouth only, because they want to live their wicked life. Moreover, they also declared that if they had not been as they are, they would not have been able to amass riches and thereby defend their little republic against their powerful hostile neighbors. But they were shown that hardly anyone is acting from that principle, and that theirs is a far-fetched argument; and furthermore, that they could abound in riches without being of the mind set to want to seize the goods of others.
3503. I conversed with these persons on various topics, as for instance that in the other life no respect is paid to persons; that the rich are saved equally with the poor; that men may become rich, and engage in business like the most active of that class, and still be saved, for everyone is regarded according to his end and love; that there are those of their rich men who did business in like manner, that yet enjoy eternal life; and that the greater part of the poor are worse than they, and are rejected. But they urged, on the other hand, that if they are saved, they must renounce their business and give their wealth to the poor, which would render them miserable. But it was given to reply, that the fact was not so; and that their rich men who were good and were saved, felt entirely otherwise. They know too the grounds on which this conceit is founded, but they explain them according to an interior and truer sense. Thus, for example, they who in saying the Lord's prayer, which I recited to them, pray that the Lord would not lead them into temptation, such persons, if truly Christians, are at once aware that the Lord leads no one into temptation, wherefore they do not abide in the letter, but in the interior sense of the letter. So also in regard to what is said about the rich young man's being commanded to sell all his goods and take up the cross, this too is to be understood otherwise in the interior sense. But the persons in question give utterance to such sentiments with their lips, because they are addicted to filty lucre, and wish to live their own nefarious life. They said, moreover, that unless the acquisition of riches was allowed, they would have no means of defending their little commonwealth against their powerful hostile neighbors. But it was shown to them that scarcely anyone acts from such a principle [of patriotism], but that it was a mere argumentative fetch; and that they might besides abound in wealth without desiring to deprive others of what belonged to them.
3503. Loquutus cum iis de variis, tum quod in altera vita nullus respectus personarum habeatur, sed quod divites aeque ac pauperes salventur, et quod divites fieri possint, et negotiari, sicut negotiati, et usque salvari, nam quisque ex fine et amore spectatur; quod divites eorum sint, qui similiter negotiati usque vita aeterna fruantur, et quod plurima pars pauperum iis pejores sint et rejiciantur: sed objiciebant, quod si salvarentur, quod amitterent negotiari, quod darent pecunias suas pauperibus, et quod miseri erent, sed iis datum respondere, quod non ita se res habeat, et quod aliter sentiant divites eorum qui boni sunt et salvantur, qui sciunt idem, sed usque sciunt, et explicant ea secundum sensum interiorem et verum: sicut pro exemplo, in oratione Domini, quod iis dixi, qui precantur, ne Dominus inducat eos in tentationes, ii qui sunt vere Christiani, illico dicunt, quod Dominus nullum inducat in tentationem, quare non manent in litera, sed in sensu interiori literae; ita etiam de iis, quod dicant, diviti adolescenti dictum quod venderet omnia sua, et sumeret crucem [Marc. X: 21-], quae in sensu interiore intellecta aliter se habent: sed ii quia tales, et nefandis lucris addicti, talia ore gerunt, quia suam nefandam vitam volunt vivere. Praeterea etiam dicebant, quod nisi tales non potuissent opes acquirere, et sic defendere rempublicam parvam, quae per opes defendere se potest contra tantos vicinos hostes, sed ostensum iis, quod vix quisquam ex tali principio agat, sed quod sit argumentum acquisitum, praeter quod abundare possint opibus, et usque non eo animo esse, ut surripere cupiant aliis eorum bona.