4772. Then many from there were seen, their spirits, who were speaking with angels and being instructed through heaven by the Lord about such things as pertain to heavenly doctrine. And they said that they were communicating these things to their own [people]. After this hypocrites came (some were from hell), and they injected opposing ideas, to which however the spirits paid no attention. Yet they listened so that they might know about opposing ideas and thus be better enlightened in truths. Because where there is enlightenment, there must also be a sight of opposing ideas.
[2] Afterwards the angels spoke among themselves about the fact that those who are within the Church have a depraved disposition and nature, they want to have an invisible God, one who does not descend into their thinking, or of whom an idea cannot be formed, and so a God with whom they cannot be joined through thoughts or sensual affections. Such are those who are within the Church. This is why they do not acknowledge the Lord as God because He was a person. They do not acknowledge this in spite of the fact that those who lived in the most ancient times, who were wiser than we, like those before Abraham, Abraham himself, and those after him, worshiped Jehovah under a human form, and when He appeared in this form, called Him Jehovah and the creator of the universe. The angels who are the wisest do likewise: they worship God under a human form, and the Lord appears to them in this form. They say that an invisible creator is incomprehensible, one with whom they cannot be spiritually united. This has been inscribed from heaven on the nature of the peoples outside of Europe and even on some within Europe. For this reason they want to worship God under some form. When they hear that God has been seen by people in the world, that is, when they hear about the Lord, they run, believe, and embrace teaching concerning Him, saying that if there is a God, He needed to have appeared to people, and in no other form than the human form. This is implanted in their nature because it is from heaven; but it has been virtually rooted out of the hearts of Christians, except from the hearts of some of the simple.
4772. There then appeared many from this place - that is, their spirits - who spoke with the angels, and were instructed through heaven from the Lord, concerning such things as belong to heavenly doctrine; and they said that they would communicate these to their people. Afterwards came hypocrites, and some from hell, and bore in contrary things, to which, however, the former spirits did not attend, but yet heard, in order that they might know contrary things, and so be the better illustrated in truths; for where there is enlightenment, there also there must be an idea of the contraries.
After that, the angels spoke together concerning the fact, that those who are within the Church are of a depraved disposition and nature, namely, that they wish to have an invisible God that does not fall into the thought, or concerning whom [no] idea could be formed, and thus with whom they cannot be conjoined by sensual thoughts and affections. Such are they who are within the Church; wherefore, they do not acknowledge the Lord as God, because He was a man, when yet they who were in the most ancient times, and were wise above others - as, for instance, those who were before Abraham, Abraham himself, and those who were after him - worshipped Jehovah under a human form; and when He appeared under that form, they called him Jehovah, and Creator of the universe. Similarly do the wisest of the angels: they worship God under a human form and the Lord also appears to them under that form. They say an invisible Creator is an incomprehensible being, to whom they cannot be conjoined. This is inscribed, from heaven on the nature of the nations outside of Europe, and, also, of some within Europe; wherefore, they wish to worship God under some form. When these hear that the Lord was seen by men in the world, thus when they hear about the Lord, they then flock together, believe, and eagerly embrace the doctrine concerning Him, saying that if God, He must have appeared to men, and under no other shape than the human. This is implanted in men's nature, because it is from heaven; but this is eradicated, as it were, from the hearts of Christians, except from the hearts of some of the simple ones.
4772. Apparebant tunc plures inde, nempe eorum spiritus, qui loquentes [erant] cum angelis, et instruebantur per coelum a Domino, de talibus quae sunt doctrinae coelestis, et dicebant quod illa communicarent suis: postea veniebant hypocritae, ac aliqui ex inferno, et ingerebant contraria, ad quae tamen non attendebant, sed usque audiebant, ut scirent contraria, et sic melius illustrarentur in veritatibus, nam ubi illustratio, ibi etiam contrariorum visio erit.
[2] Postea loquebantur angeli inter se de eo, quod illi qui intra Ecclesiam sunt, indole et natura prava sint, quod nempe volunt habere Deum invisibilem, qui non cadit in cogitationem aut de quo [non] aliqua idea formari posset, et sic cum quo conjungi per cogitationes et per affectiones sensuales nequeunt, tales sunt illi qui intra Ecclesiam, quare Dominum non agnoscunt pro Deo, quia homo fuit, cum tamen illi qui in antiquissimis temporibus, qui sapientes prae nobis, sicut qui ante Abraham, ipse Abraham, et qui post illum, Jehovam colebant sub forma humana, et cum apparebat sub illa forma, vocabant Jehovam et creatorem universi; similiter faciunt angeli qui sapientissimi, Deum colunt sub forma humana, et quoque Dominus illis apparet sub illa forma, creatorem invisibilem dicunt incomprehensibilem, cui conjungi nequeunt; hoc e coelo inscriptum est naturae gentium extra Europam, etiam quibusdam intra Europam, quare volunt Deum colere sub aliqua forma, hi cum audiunt, quod Deus visus sit hominibus in mundo, ita cum audiunt de Domino, tunc accurrunt, credunt, et doctrinam de illo arripiunt, dicentes quod si Deus, apparere debuerit hominibus, et non sub alia specie quam sub humana, hoc insitum est naturae illorum, quia e coelo, sed hoc est eradicatum quasi e cordibus Christianorum, praeter e cordibus simplicium quorundam.