4893. The greatest part of them were such as had said, when they were in the heavens, "What is the truth that we ought to think? What is faith? Can't one speak and think satisfactorily without these?" In a word, such things had no value for them. Consequently they could not be changed for the better and reformed, and eventually they coaxed others into thinking and speaking the same way. Such correspond to the worms that consume the leaves of the trees in spring and summer, causing the budding fruit to die. I have even seen how they descend as if by threads, as these worms are used to doing from trees. There was an immense crowd of this kind of worms. They add that they know what doing and saying what they want is, because they experience it, but that they don't know what it is to believe and so think about what is good, that they have no experience of it, and that it cannot accomplish anything. They get this from their life in the world, where on account of the world they had had no desire to think about heaven because, as they said, they do not have any idea what it is, thus do not know what it is to think and will inwardly. On this account, when they speak among themselves in all freedom, they speak against the neighbor and against God, supposing that this doesn't matter.
[2] Others spoke with certain ones who had been let down from there, and I heard them saying they did not know that they had been in the heavens, and that they had seen some meadows, grass, bushes, but not gardens and ornamental parks, nor any really ornate palaces, still less had they seen that the angels there have or do anything other than is the case elsewhere. But it was explained to them that when they are involved in worldly and bodily matters, they can never see such things as the angels do; these are entirely hidden from their eyes. The reason is that their inward elements do not correspond. This is how it is in the spiritual world, that is to say, in heaven: the eyes see what conforms to and is in harmony with the inward sight and with the affection for what is true and good. In the same way too, such things are hidden from them, and because they do not receive the Divine inflow of what is good and true, they cannot have any knowledge of the blessed and happy delights of the inward elements in these; they cannot grasp what this is. Consequently they do not [perceive] anything heavenly in objects, still less any wisdom, as happens with the objects seen by the angels. This is why they spoke as they did.
4893. The greatest part of them were such, as, when they were in the heavens, had said, What is the truth that we ought to think? What is faith? Is it not enough to speak and think without these? In a word, they considered such things as of no value, and, consequently, they could not be improved and reformed; at last, also, they entice others to similar thinking and speaking. They are such as correspond to the worms which consume the leaves of trees in the time of spring and summer, by which means the rudiment of the fruit perishes. They also seemed to be let down as by threads, according as those worms are wont [to hang down] from trees. There was a vast crowd of such. They add that they know what it is to speak and do as they please, because they feel it; but what it is to believe and thence to think good, they do not know, nor do they hold that it could be of any consequence. They derive this from their life in the world, in that, on account of the world, they wished not to think anything about heaven, because, as they said, they do not know what it is, thus what is interior in thought and will. Wherefore, when they converse together, they speak with all boldness against the neighbor, and against God, supposing it does not matter. With certain ones who were let down thence, there spoke others; and I heard them saying that they are not aware of having been in the heavens; and that, where they had been, they saw some verdant and grassy spots and shrubs, but not gardens and paradises, nor highly ornate palaces; still less did they see the angels there have or do any otherwise than elsewhere: but the reason was told them, [namely,] that, since they are in worldly and corporeal things, they are by no means able to see such things as are with the angels these are altogether hidden form their eyes. The reason is because their interiors do not correspond. Thus it is in the spiritual world, or heaven: they see with their eyes those things which conform to, and agree with, the internal sight, and the affection of truth and good. On this account, also, such things were hidden from the ones here mentioned, and, inasmuch as they do not receive the Divine influx of good and truth, therefore neither are they able to know the pleasantness, happiness and felicity of interiors enjoyed by those angels. They do not comprehend that this is so; neither, therefore, that there is aught heavenly in the objects, as is the case with those things which are seen by the angels; still less, do they place any happiness in wisdom. This is the reason that they spoke thus.
4893. Maxima pars illorum tales fuerunt, cum in coelis fuerunt, qui dixerunt, quid verum quod cogitare debemus, quid fides, anne satis sit loqui et cogitare absque illis, verbo quod talia essent nullius pretii, proinde sic non potuerunt emendari et reformari, et tandem pelliciunt alios ad simile cogitandum et loquendum; tales sunt qui correspondent vermibus qui consumunt folia arborum tempore veris et aestatis, per quod perit initiamentum fructum. Visi etiam sunt sicut per fila demitti, prout solent vermes illi ex arboribus; talium ingens turba fuit. Addunt, quod loqui et facere quod volunt, sciant quod sit, quia sentiunt, at credere, et cogitare bonum inde, non sciunt quid sit, nec sentiant, quod id aliquid facere posset, hoc trahunt ex vita in mundo, quod propter mundum nihil de coelo voluerint cogitare, quia sicut dixerunt, non sciunt quid sit, ita quid interius in cogitatione et voluntate. Quapropter cum inter se colloquuntur, in omni licentia loquuntur contra proximum, et contra Deum, putantes id nihil facere.
[2] Cum quibusdam qui inde demissi sunt loquuti sunt alii, et audivi dicentes quod non sciant quod fuerint in coelis, et quod viderint ibi aliqua vireta, graminea, arbusculas, non autem hortos et paradisos, nec palatia ornatissima, minus quod viderint angelos ibi aliud habere et facere, quam alibi, sed causa illis dicta est, quod cum in mundanis et corporeis sunt, nequaquam videre possint talia quae angeli, sunt illorum oculis prorsus abscondita, causa est, quia interiora non correspondent, ita est in mundo spirituali seu coelo, quod videant oculis conformia et convenientia visui interno, et affectioni veri et boni, ita etiam illis talia abscondita sunt, et quia non recipiunt influxum Divinum boni et veri, ideo nec scire possunt jucunda beata et felicia interiorum apud illos, hoc nec capiunt quod, proinde nec in objectis aliquid coeleste, sicut fit in illis quae visa angelis, minus aliquid felix in sapientia ponunt; haec causa est, quod ita dixerint.