6075.“我们和我们的祖宗一样”表自古时就是如此。这从“祖宗”的含义清楚可知，“祖宗”是指那些属于古代教会的人（参看6050节）。在圣言中，有许多经文提到犹太人和以色列人，并以称赞的口吻提到他们的祖宗。那些拘守字义的人只是将这些经文中的“祖宗或列祖”理解为亚伯拉罕、以撒、雅各，以及雅各的儿子们。但就内义而言，“祖宗或列祖”在正面意义上不是指这些族长，而是指那些属于大洪水前的上古教会之人，和那些属于大洪水后的古教会之人。这两个教会的成员被称为“祖宗或列祖”，是因为教会就是从他们那里传下来的，教会的事物也源于他们。
在摩西五经中，“祖宗或列祖”是指那些属于古代教会的人：
耶和华但喜悦你的列祖，爱他们，在他们之后拣选了他们的种。（申命记10:15）
又：
你当追想亘古之日，思念代代之年。至高者将地业赐给列族，将世人分开，就照以色列人的数目，立定万民的疆界。但耶书仑渐渐肥胖，便离弃神，他们献祭给鬼魔，乃是近来新兴的神，是你列祖所不畏惧的。（申命记32:7，8，15，17）
这段经文出现在摩西的先知之歌中，其中7-15节论述了古教会，15-44节论述了雅各的后代。“亘古之日”表示大洪水之前的上古教会的状态；“代代之年”表示大洪水之后的古教会的状态；“至高者所赐给列族的地业”表示其良善的状态；“至高者将世人分开，就照以色列人的数目，立定万民的疆界”表示其真理的状态。这个“数目”，即“十二”表示整体上的一切信之真理（参看577，2089，2129，2130，3272，3858，3913节）。由此明显可知“列祖“表示那些属于古代教会的人。在以下经文中同样如此，以赛亚书：
我们圣洁华美的殿，就是我们列祖赞美你的所在，被火焚烧。（以赛亚书64:11）
耶利米书：
你的父亲岂不是也吃、也喝，也施行公平和公义吗？那时他得了福乐。（耶利米书22:15）
又：
他们得罪那作公义居所的耶和华，就是他们列祖所仰望的耶和华。（耶利米书50:7）
诗篇：
神啊，你在古日，我们列祖的日子所行的事，我们亲耳听见了；我们的列祖也给我们述说过。（诗篇44:1）
“列祖”在但以理书（11:24，37，38）具有相同的含义。在这些经文中，“列祖”表示那些属于古代教会的人，这一事实在字义中看不到，只能从内义看出来；就内义而言，所论述的主题是教会及其良善与真理。此外，教会本身因是天上的婚姻，就是良善与真理的婚姻，故在圣言中，就良善而言被称为“父”，就真理而言被称为“母”（3703，5581节）。
Potts(1905-1910) 6075
6075. Both we and our fathers. That this signifies that this is so from the ancients, is evident from the signification of "fathers," as being those who were of the ancient churches (see n. 6050). In many passages of the Word where the Jews and the Israelites are treated of, their fathers are mentioned with praise. They who abide in the sense of the letter understand by "fathers" in these passages no others than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and also the sons of Jacob. But in the internal sense by "fathers" there, when spoken of in a good sense, are not meant these patriarchs, but they who were of the Most Ancient Church which was before the flood, and they who were of the Ancient Church which was after the flood. The men of both these churches were called "fathers" because from them the church had descended, and the things of the church had been derived. [2] By "fathers" are meant those who were of the Ancient Churches, in Moses:
Jehovah had delight in thy fathers to love them, and He chose their seed after them (Deut. 10:15). And again:
Remember the days of eternity, understand the years of generation and generation. When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. But when Jeshurun waxed fat, he forsook God, they sacrifice to demons, to gods that came from what is near, and that your fathers knew not (Deut. 32:7, 8, 15, 17). This passage occurs in the prophetic song of Moses, in which the Ancient Church is treated of from verse seven to verse fifteen, and the posterity of Jacob from verse fifteen to verse forty-four. The state of the Most Ancient Church which was before the flood is signified by the "days of eternity;" and the state of the Ancient Church which was after the flood by the "years of generation and generation;" the state of their good by the "inheritance which the Most High gave to the nations;" and the state of their truth by the "Most High separating the sons of man, and setting the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel." (That this number, or twelve, means all truths of faith in the complex, may be seen above, n. 577, 2089, 2129, 2130, 3272, 3858, 3913.) From this it is plain that by "fathers" are signified those who were of the Ancient Churches. [3] In like manner in the following passages. In Isaiah:
Our house of holiness, and our ornament, where our fathers praised Thee, is become a burning of fire (Isa. 64:11). In Jeremiah:
Did not thy father eat and drink? but he did judgment and justice; then it was well with him (Jer. 22:15). Again:
They sinned to Jehovah, the habitation of justice, and the hope of their fathers, to Jehovah (Jer. 50:7). In David:
We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, the work Thou didst in their days, in the days of antiquity (Ps. 44:1). "Fathers" have the like signification in Daniel 11:24, 37, 38. That they who were of the Ancient Churches are meant by "fathers" in these passages, is not seen in the sense of the letter, but only from the internal sense, in which the church and its goods and truths are treated of. Moreover the church itself, being the heavenly marriage, that is, the marriage of good and truth, is called in the Word "father" as to good, and "mother" as to truth (n. 3703, 5581).
Elliott(1983-1999) 6075
6075. 'Both we and our fathers' means that this was so since the time of the ancients. This is clear from the meaning of 'fathers' as those who belonged to the ancient Churches, dealt with in 6050. In the Word there are many places referring to the Jews and Israelites in which their fathers are spoken of in a praiseworthy manner. People who confine themselves to the sense of the letter do not take 'fathers in those places to mean anybody other than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and also the sons of Jacob. But in the internal sense 'fathers', in a good sense, is used to mean not them but those who belonged to the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood and those who belonged to the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood. Members of both were called 'fathers' because the Church came down from them and things of the Church were derived from them.
[2] 'Fathers' is used in Moses to mean those belonging to the Ancient Churches,
Your fathers Jehovah delighted to love, and He chose their seed after them. Deut 10:15.
And in the same author,
Remember the days of old, understand the Years of generation after generation. When the Most High gave to the nations an inheritance, when He separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel. But when Jeshurun became fat he forsook God. They sacrifice to demons, to gods [whom they do not know, to new ones] that have come from near by and that your fathers did not fear.a Deut 32:7, 8, 15, 17.
These words appear in the prophetical Song of Moses, in which verses 7-15 refer to the Ancient Church and verses 15-44 to the descendants of Jacob. The state of the Most Ancient Church which existed before the Flood is meant by 'the days of old', and the state of the Ancient Church which existed after the Flood by 'the years of generation after generation'. Their state of good is meant by 'an inheritance which the Most High gave to the nations', and their state of truth by 'the Most High separated the sons of man, He fixed the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the sons of Israel', which 'number', being 'twelve', means all the truths of faith in their entirety, see 577, 2089, 2129 (end), 2130 (end), 3272, 3858, 3913. From this it is evident that 'fathers' means those who belonged to the ancient Churches. A similar meaning exists in the following places: In Isaiah,
Our holy house, and our splendour, where our fathers praised You, has been made into a blaze of fire. Isa 64:11.
In Jeremiah,
Did not your father eat and drink, yet execute judgement and righteousness? Then all went well for him. Jer 22:15.
In the same prophet,
They have sinned against Jehovah, the habitation of righteousness and the hope of their fathers. Jer 50:7.
In David,
O God, we have heard with our ears, our fathers have told us the work You worked in their days, in the days of old. Ps 44:1.
'Fathers' is used in the same way in Daniel 11:14, 37, 38. The fact that those who belonged to the ancient Churches are meant in these places by 'fathers' is not apparent in the sense of the letter; it is seen only from the internal sense in which the Church, its forms of good, and its truths are the subject. Furthermore the Church itself - being the heavenly marriage, that is, the marriage of goodness and truth - is called 'father' in the Word in respect to goodness and 'mother' in respect to truth, 3707, 5581.
Latin(1748-1756) 6075
6075. `Etiam nos, etiam patres nostri': quod significet quod ita ab antiquis, constat a significatione `patrum' quod sint illi qui ab antiquis Ecclesiis, de qua n. 6050. In Verbo, ubi de Judaeis et (x)Israelitis agitur, pluribus in locis cum laude nominantur `patres'; qui in sensu litterae manent, per patres ibi non alios intelligunt quam Abrahamum, Jishakum, et Jacobum, et quoque filios Jacobi; sed in sensu interno per `patres' ibi, cum in bono sensu, non illi intelliguntur sed qui fuerunt ab Ecclesia Antiquissima quae ante diluvium, et qui ab Ecclesia Antiqua quae post diluvium; illi et hi patres dicti sunt quia ab illis descendit Ecclesia, et derivata sunt illa quae Ecclesiae; [2]per `patres' intelliguntur qui ab antiquis Ecclesiis, apud Mosen, Patribus tuis delectatus est Jehovah, ad amandum eos, et elegit semen eorum post illos, Deut. x 15:et apud eundem, Memento dierum aeternitatis, intelligite annos generationis et generationis, . . . cum hereditatem dedit Altissimus gentibus, quum separavit filios hominis, constituit terminos populorum, juxta numerum filiorum Israelis: . . . sed cum pinguis factus est Jeshurun, . . . deseruit Deum, . . . sacrificant daemonibus, diis, . . . qui e propinquo venerunt, et non noverunt patres vestri, Deut. (x)xxxii 7, 8, 15, 17;
haec in Cantico Mosis prophetico, in quo de Antiqua Ecclesia agitur a vers. 7 ad 15, et de posteris Jacobi a vers. 15 ad 44; status Ecclesiae Antiquissimae quae ante diluvium, significatur per `dies aeternitatis'; et status Antiquae Ecclesiae quae post diluvium, per `annos generationis et generationis'; status boni eorum per `hereditatem quam dedit Altissimus gentibus'; et status veri eorum per quod `Altissimus separavit filios hominis, constituit terminos populorum, juxta numerum filiorum Israelis'; quod hic numerus seu `duodecim', sint omnia vera fidei in complexu, videatur n. 577, 2089, {1} 2129 fin., 2130 fin., 3272, 3858, 3913; inde patet quod per `patres' significentur illi qui ab antiquis Ecclesiis. Similiter in his locis: apud Esaiam, Domus sanctitatis nostra, et decus nostrum, ubi {2}laudaverunt Te patres nostri, (x)facta est in incendium ignis, lxiv 10 (A. V. 11):
apud Jeremiam, Pater tuus nonne comedit et bibit? sed fecit judicium et justitiam, tunc bene illi, xxii 15:
apud eundem, Peccarunt Jehovae, habitaculo justitiae, et spei patrum eorum, Jehovae, l 7:
apud Davidem, Deus, auribus nostris audivimus, patres nostri enarraverunt nobis, opus operatus in diebus illorum, in diebus antiquitatis, Ps.xliv 2:
pariter `patres' apud Danielem xi 24, 37, 38: quod illi qui ab antiquis Ecclesiis intelligantur per `patres' in his locis, in sensu litterae non apparet sed ex sensu interno in quo agitur de Ecclesia, deque bonis et veris ejus; ipsa Ecclesia etiam quia est conjugium caeleste, hoc est, conjugium boni et veri, in Verbo quoad bonum vocatur `pater' et quoad verum `mater', n. 3703, (x)5581. @1 I i 2119$ @2 laverunt 1$