164.关于灵人与世人同在时的一般状态。我有时思考灵人与过着平凡生活的人在一起时是何状态；因为我有时甚至怀疑灵人和天使是否像与我同在那样与人同在；只是因为我感觉不到他们，并且信服这一常见理由：我看不见他们。事实上，我发现，通常情况下，当只剩下他们自己时，如当他们与之同在的那个人睡着时，他们的状态具有不同的性质，在各个方面都如梦境一般；当此人醒来时，其状态又变了。然而，它仍完全不同于他们与我同在时的状态，如别处所述（207节）。我的意思是说，当有人与我说话，或与我互动时，灵人以这样的方式而为工具性的因素：他们不知道那时他们听见或看见了什么，如他们所承认的。言语交流一结束，当我的反思传到灵人那里时，他们似乎清醒过来，意识到他们单独生活，与人分离，并且是可分离的。
164. About the usual state of spirits when they are with people on earth
I have sometimes pondered what the state of spirits was like when they are together with a person living an everyday life; for even I have doubted at times that there were spirits and angels around people as they are with me, for the simple reason that I did not sense them, being persuaded also by the commonplace reason that I did not see them.
And indeed I noticed that usually, their state when left to themselves, as they are when the person [they are with] is sleeping, was dream-like in various ways, whereas when the person was awake, it altered, but still differing entirely from their state when with me spoken of elsewhere [207]: I mean that when some person was speaking or interacting with me, they were instrumental means, in such a way that they were not aware of what they heard or saw, as they admitted. Immediately after the verbal exchange, when I reflected inwardly into my spirit, then they seemed to come to themselves, and to realize that they were lives by themselves, separate and separable from people.
164. CONCERNING THE GENERAL STATE OF THE SPIRITS WITH MEN
I have sometimes considered what the state of the spirits around man is like when he lives the ordinary life; for I have even doubted at times whether there were spirits and angels with man as they are with me, solely for the reason that they were not perceived, and also owing to the general circumstance that they were not seen. And I have indeed observed that their state when left to themselves, as when man is asleep, was of a different nature and was a variously representative one; but when the man is awake, it was different. Nevertheless, it differed entirely from their state when with me, (concerning which some other time, [n. 207); namely, that when a man was speaking and doing something with me, spirits were the instrumental cause, in such a way that they did not know what they then heard or saw, as they confessed. Immediately after my interaction by speech, when there was reflection from me to the spirits, they then returned to themselves, as it were, and perceived that they were lives by themselves, separate and separable from man.
164. De statu spirituum cum hominibus communi
Aliquoties pensitavi, qualis status spirituum esset cum homine, cum vitam communem vivit, nam et ego aliquoties dubitavi, quod circa hominem spiritus et angeli essent sicut apud me, ex sola causa, quod non perciperentur, inductus etiam ex ea causa communi, quod non viderentur; et quidem observavi, quod alioquin status eorum sibi relictorum, ut dum dormit homo, esset varie repraesentativus, sed in vigilia hominis, quod alius esset, sed tamen plane differret a statu eorum apud me, de quo alias [207]; nempe quod loquente agente homine mecum instrumentales causae essent, sic ut nesciverint, quid tunc audiverint vel viderint, sicut fassi sunt; illico post commercium loquelae, cum a me reflecteretur in spiritum, tunc quasi se redibant percipiebant, quod vitae per se essent, separati separabiles ab homine.