57.我与天主教徒谈论交给彼得的钥匙，问他们是否认为主掌管天地的权柄真的转交给彼得。由于这是他们宗教的根基，所以他们强烈坚持这一点，说那是毫无疑问的，因为圣经说得清清楚楚。但当我问他们是否知道圣言的每个细节里面都有一个灵义，也就是圣言在天堂的意义时，他们起初说他们不知道，后来又说他们会询问；询问时，他们被教导，圣言的每个细节里面的确有一个灵义，这灵义不同于字义，如同属灵之物不同于属世之物。他们还被教导，圣言中的人名在天上都不会提及，或说具有这种含义，相反在那里会被理解为某种属灵事物。最后，他们被告知，圣言中的“彼得”是指来自仁之良善的教会的信之真理，与彼得一同提及的“磐石”也是这个意思，因为经上说：
你是彼得，我要把我的教会建造在这磐石上。（马太福音16:18）
这句话的意思不是说给了彼得任何权柄，而是说给了良善所产生的真理；因为在天堂，一切权柄都属于良善所产生的真理，或通过真理行动的良善；由于一切良善和真理皆来自主，丝毫不来自人，所以一切权柄皆属于主。听到这番话，他们很愤怒，想知道这些话里面有没有灵义。于是，他们被赐予天上的圣言，在这圣言里面没有属世意义，只有属灵意义，因为它适合天使，而天使都是属灵的。关于天上有这样一部圣言，可参看《天堂与地狱》一书（259-261节）。当他们阅读这圣言时，分明看到这圣言并未提及彼得，取而代之的是来自主的、良善所生的真理。看到这个，他们愤怒地弃绝了这圣言；若不是立刻被抢过来，这圣言几乎被他们用牙齿撕成碎片。因此，他们虽不情愿，却也信服，这权柄唯独属于主；它决无可能属于任何人，因为它是神性权柄。
57. I talked with some Catholics about the keys that were given to Peter, 1and asked whether they believed that the Lord's power over heaven and hell was actually transferred to Peter. Since this was a fundamental principle of their religious system, they vehemently insisted on it, saying that there was no doubt whatever about it because Scripture clearly said so. However, when they were asked whether they were aware that there is a spiritual meaning within the details of the Word, which is the meaning that the Word has in heaven, at first they said that they were not aware of this. Later, though, they said that they would look into it; and when they did, they were taught that within the details of the Word there is a spiritual meaning that differs from the literal meaning the way anything spiritual differs from what is earthly. They were also taught that no individual who is mentioned by name in the Word is mentioned by name in heaven, but that instead of the name something spiritual is indicated. Then they were told that “Peter” in the Word means the truth of the church's faith that teaches good actions done out of caring. “The rock” that is mentioned there in connection with Peter has the same meaning, since it says, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18 and following). This does not mean that power was given to Peter but that power belongs to the truth that serves the doing of good, since all power in the heavens belongs to truth acting on behalf of what is good, or to goodness acting through the agency of truth. Further, since everything good and everything true comes from the Lord and none of it from us, we can see that all power belongs to the Lord.
They became angry when they heard this and said they wanted to know whether there really was a spiritual meaning in these particular words, so the Word as it exists in heaven was given to them. In that form of the Word there is a spiritual meaning but no meaning that is earthly, because it is for angels, who are spiritual beings (on this as the nature of the Word in heaven, see Heaven and Hell 259, 261). When they read this passage in it, they saw very clearly that instead of Peter it mentioned truth from the Lord that teaches the doing of good. 2When they saw this they angrily rejected that Word. If it had not been taken away at that moment they might very well have shredded it with their teeth. In this way they were convinced-even though they did not want to be convinced-that only the Lord has that power. No human has it at all, because it is a divine power.
Footnotes:
1. On the keys given to Peter, see note 1 in New Jerusalem 316. [Editors]
2. [Swedenborg note] The [Roman Catholic] church ascribes two distinct natures to the Lord; it separates his divinity from his humanity. This was arrived at in a council for the sake of the papacy, so that the pope could be acknowledged as the vicar of Christ. This was disclosed to me by a heavenly source: see Secrets of Heaven 4738.
57. I spoke with some of those people about the keys given to Peter, asking whether they believed the Lord's power over heaven and hell was transferred to him. Since this is a fundamental point in their religious system, they strongly insisted on it, saying that there was no doubt at all about it, since it is plainly stated. When I asked whether they knew that the details of the Word contain a spiritual sense, and that this is how the Word is understood in heaven, they started by saying that they did not. But later they said that they would enquire, and on doing so they were taught that the details of the Word contain a spiritual sense, which is as different from the literal sense as what is spiritual is from what is natural. Moreover, they were taught that none of the names used in the Word has that meaning in heaven, but there something spiritual is understood instead. Finally they were informed that instead of Peter there is meant in the Word the church's truth of faith coming from the good of charity. Rock, which is mentioned along with Peter, has a similar meaning, for we read:
You are Peter and upon this rock 1I will build my church. Matthew 16:18.
This does not mean that any power was given to Peter, but to truth arising from good; for all power in the heavens belongs to truth arising from good, or to good acting by means of truth, and because all good and truth come from the Lord, and nothing is from man, all power belongs to the Lord.
On hearing this they were indignant and wanted to know whether that was the spiritual sense of the words. So they were given the Word as it is in heaven, which contains the spiritual but not the natural sense, since it is for angels, and they are spiritual. On the existence of such a Word in heaven see HEAVEN AND HELL 259-261. When they read this they saw plainly that there was no mention of Peter in it, but in his place truth from good coming from the Lord. 1On seeing this they angrily rejected the Word, and would almost have torn it in pieces with their teeth, if it had not been instantly snatched away. Thus they were convinced, although against their will, that that power belongs to the Lord alone; far less does it belong to any human being, because it is Divine.
Footnotes:
1. The Lord's twelve disciples represented the church in all respects concerning truth and good or faith and love, in the same way as the twelve tribes of Israel (2129, 3354, 3488, 3858, 6397). Peter, James and John represented faith, charity and the good deeds of charity (3750). Peter stands for faith (4738, 6000, 6073, 6344, 10087, 10580). Peter being given the keys of the kingdom of the heavens means that all power belongs to truth coming from good, or faith coming from charity which is from the Lord; and so that all power belongs to the Lord (6344). A key is the power of opening and closing (9410). Good has all power by means of truths, in other words, truths have all power from good which is from the Lord (3091, 3563, 6344, 6423, 6948, 8200, 8304, 9327, 9410, 9639, 9643, 10019, 10182). Rock in the Word means the Lord as regards Divine truth (8581, 10580). All personal and place names in the Word mean things and states (768, 1888, 4310, 4442, 10329). These names do not pass into heaven, but are turned into things they mean; neither can the names be spoken in heaven (1876, 5225, 6516, 10216, 10282). It can be shown by examples how elegant the internal sense of the Word is, where it consists of nothing but names (1224, 1264, 1888).
1. [In Greek Petros and petra.]
57. I have spoken with some from that nation, concerning the keys given to Peter; whether they believe that the power of the Lord over heaven and earth was transferred to him, and because this was the fundamental of their religion, they vehemently insisted on it, saying, that there was no doubt about it, because it was said manifestly. But when I asked them whether they knew that in each expression of the Word there is a spiritual sense, which is the sense of the Word in heaven, they said at first, that they did not know it, but afterwards they said they would inquire; and on inquiring, they were instructed that there is a spiritual sense within each expression of the Word, which differs from the sense of the letter, as the spiritual differs from the natural; and they were also instructed that no person named in the Word is named in heaven, but that some spiritual thing is there understood in place of him. Finally, they were informed, that instead of "Peter" in the Word is meant the truth of the faith of the church, from the good of charity, and that the same is meant by "a rock," which is there named with Peter, for it is said:
Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build My church (Matthew 16:18).
By this is not meant that any power was given to Peter, but that it is given to truth from good, for in the heavens all power belongs to truth from good, or to good through truth; and since all good, and all truth, are from the Lord, and nothing from man, that all power is the Lord's. When they heard this they replied indignantly, that they wished to know whether there is a spiritual sense in those words, wherefore the Word which is in heaven was given them, in which Word there is not the natural sense, but the spiritual, because it is for the angels, who are spiritual; that there is such a Word in heaven, may be seen in the work on Heaven and Hell (259-261). And when they read it, they saw manifestly that Peter is not named there, but truth from good, which is from the Lord, instead of him. 1Seeing this they rejected it with anger, and would almost have torn it in pieces with their teeth, had it not at that moment been taken away. Hence they were convinced, although unwilling to be convinced, that the Lord alone has that power, and by no means can it belong to any man, because it is the Divine power.
Footnotes:
1. The twelve disciples of the Lord represented the church as to the all of truth and good, or of faith and love, as in like manner did the twelve tribes of Israel (2179, 3354, 3488, 3858, 6397). Peter, James, and John, represented faith, charity, and the goods of charity (3750). Peter represented faith (4738, 6000, 6073, 6344, 10087, 10580). The keys of the kingdom of heaven being given to Peter, signifies that all power is given to truth from good, or to faith from charity, proceeding from the Lord; thus that all power belongs to the Lord (6344). "A key" signifies the power of opening and shutting (9410). All power is in good by truths, or in truths from good, proceeding from the Lord (3091, 3563, 6344, 6413, 6948, 8200, 8304, 9327, 9410, 9639, 9643, 10019, 10182). "A rock" in the Word signifies the Lord as to Divine truth (8581, 10580). All names of persons and places in the Word signify things and states (768, 1888, 4310, 4442, 10329). Their names do not enter heaven, but are turned into the things they signify, and they cannot be pronounced in heaven (1878, 5225, 6516, 10216, 10282). How elegant is the internal sense of the word, where mere names occur, is illustrated by examples (1224, 1264, 1888).
57. Locutus sum cum quibusdam ex illa gente de clavibus Petro datis, num credant in illum potestatem Domini super caelum et infernum translatam esse; quod quia erat fundamentale religionis eorum, vehementer instabant, dicentes quod de eo nihil dubii sit, quia manifeste dicitur. Sed ad interrogationem, num sciant quod singulis Verbi insit sensus spiritualis, qui est sensus Verbi in caelo, dicebant primum quod non sciant, sed postea dicebant quod inquisituri sint, et cum inquirebant instructi sunt quod sensus spiritualis sit in singulis Verbi, qui a sensu litterae differt sicut spirituale a naturali; et insuper instructi sunt quod non aliqua persona nominata in Verbo nominetur in caelo, sed quod loco ejus aliquid spirituale ibi intelligatur: informati denique sunt, quod pro "Petro" in Verbo intelligatur ecclesiae verum fidei quod ex bono charitatis, similiter per "petram," quae tunc nominatur cum Petro, nam dicitur,
"Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam" (Matthaeus 16:18, seq.):
Per quae non intelligitur quod Petro data sit aliqua potestas, sed quod sit vero quod ex bono, nam omnis potestas in caelis est vero ex bono, seu bono per verum; et quia omne bonum et verum sunt a Domino, et nihil ex homine, quod omnis potestas sit Domino. His auditis indignati dixerunt, quod velint scire num is sensus spiritualis sit in illis verbis; quapropter datum est illis Verbum quod in caelo, in quo Verbo non est sensus naturalis sed spiritualis, quia pro angelis qui spirituales; quod tale Verbum in caelo sit, videatur in opere De Caelo et Inferno (259, 261); et cum id legebant, manifeste videbant non ibi Petrum nominari, sed loco ejus verum ex bono quod a Domino: 1hoc viso ex ira rejecerunt illud; paene dilaniassent dentibus, nisi eo momento ablatum fuisset: inde convicti sunt, tametsi non voluerunt convinci, quod soli Domino illa potestas sit, et eo minus alicui homini, quia est potestas Divina.
(EX ARCANIS CAELESTIBUS.)
Footnotes:
1. Quod duodecim discipuli Domini repraesentaverint ecclesiam quoad omnia veri et boni, seu fidei et amoris, similiter ac duodecim tribus Israelis (2179 (2129?), 3354, 3488, 3858, 6397).
Quod Petrus, Jacobus et Johannes repraesentaverint fidem, charitatem, et bona charitatis (3750).
Quod Petrus fidem (4738, 6000, 6073, 6344, 10087, 10580).
Quod Petro dati sint claves regni caelorum, significet quod omnis potentia sit vero ex bono, seu dei ex charitate quae ex Domino, ita quod omnis potestas sit Domino (6344).
Quod "clavis" sit potestas aperiendi et claudendi (9410). Quod omnis potentia sit bono per vera, seu veris ex bono, quae a Domino (3091, 3563, 6344, 6413 (6423?), 6948, 8200, 8304, 9327, 9410, 9639, 9643, 10059, 10182).
Quod "petra" in Verbo significet Dominum quoad Divinum Verum (8581, 10580).
Quod omnia nomina personarum et locorum in Verbo significent res et status (768, 1888, 4310, 4442, 10329).
Quod nomina illorum non intrent caelum, sed vertantur in res quas significant, et quod nomina illorum nec enuntiari possint in caelo (1878 (1876), 5225, 6516, 10216, 10282).
Quam elegans sensus internus Verbi ubi mera nomina, illustratum ab exemplis (1224, 1264, 1888).